"the British system doesn't work"

this forum is mainly for farriers - all are welcome but don't enter if you are easily offended!

Moderator: admin

admin
Site Admin
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 8:32 pm

"the British system doesn't work"

Postby admin » Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:26 pm

an interesting perspective, from http://www.shurshod.com

Kelly

I am really very grateful to ShurShod Horseshoeing School and the BWFA for making my childhood dream finally become reality. Anything that I can do to help or support both organizations, l will gladly do.

I started working with horses in my teen years, taking tourists on moonlight rides in Tenerife. Along with the riding came the responsibility of looking after about 55 horses on a day to day basis. Feeding, Grooming, Training and of course Shoeing. After a few months of watching my boss shoeing the horses I decided that I was going to become a professional farrier. I was about 15 years old.

I convinced my boss to teach me the basics and I started reading, a lot.

Through reading books on horseshoeing from British publishers I came to the conclusion that I had to study in England, because in England they supposedly have the best schooling for farriers and so they must produce the best farriers!

I was 19 years old when I packed all my things up and headed back to England with a quest, to get that diploma.

I sat the farriery training service entrance examination and applied to Approved Training Farriers all over the U.K. for an apprenticeship. From about 60 letters I received 2 replies to say 'sorry, but no'. I was a little disappointed, but I didn't lose heart. I made contact with a very friendly local farrier who was unfortunately not an 'ATF'' but still he said I could ride with him, I couldn't officially touch the horses but I could observe and learn and he would also try to help me find somebody to take me on as an apprentice.

Life in England isn't inexpensive and with no sign of an apprenticeship in the near future, I took a 3 month contract to work in a foundry in Holland. I could save some money and keep applying for an apprenticeship in the meantime from Holland.

It is now 6 years later and I am still living in Holland and I am now married with a child and another one on the way.

I had given up the idea of ever becoming a certified farrier, a 4 year apprenticeship is just not realistic with a mortgage, and a family. That was until about 10 months ago. I heard that a lot of Dutch farriers go to the US for schooling, so I started surfing the internet and found SHURSHOD HORSESHOEING SCHOOL in Missouri. The course times, length, price and more importantly the qualifications of the instructors made the choice easy. I booked time free from work, gave my wife and daughter a big kiss and headed off to Missouri.

I was picked up from the airport by Max Williams and Kelly Case's daughter Crystal. They made me feel really welcome took me back to the school where I met the other 5 students. That was another plus point from Shurshod, they take a maximum of 6 students for each course so you have real personal attention from Max and Kelly and there is never a big queue for the showers!

I found the course to even better than I had anticipated. At various times of the day Max would demonstrate how you do something and then we would do it. I found it to be a very effective way of teaching. The course went great and I had a lot of fun whilst learning and made some good friends.

I graduated Shurshod and I am now a certified journeyman 1 farrier. 13 years after I started, I am finally a professional farrier.

I now know that the British system doesn't work. They are making it so difficult for people like me who are very good candidates and who want to become farriers for the right reasons. To get the training and to succeed in becoming good farriers.

I am so grateful that the BWFA has a different policy on schooling and I hope for everybody that wants to become a farrier in the future, that the British system will not be adopted in the US.

Thank you again,

Paul Clark

csc
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40 am
Location: berks

Postby csc » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:40 am

learning farriery is a journey in experience the basics can be taught through books and tutors but it is experience that counts at the end of the day and that isnt found after a few months
paul must have found our system dificult as its agist atitude is not only agist but discriminates older people the cost alone must have been a great burden

cliff barnes
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:24 pm

Postby cliff barnes » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:26 am

It seems to me that paul fell foul of the one thing that all prospective apprentices usually come across at some point in thier search for the ellusive Diploma... Finding an ATF prepared to take them on, and the generall apathy and rudeness to even respond to apprentice applications.
I am not one to spout on this point as iam sad to say that in the past I have not responded to letters sent, I do now encourage poth postal and email applications from prospective candidates as there is nothing better than a hand written application letter. but its ever so easy to respond and communicate through email.
Paul I would like to wish you every success in your shoeing carea in Holland, Iam certain that if you had found that ellusive apprenticeship that you would have enjoyed the experience.

slowhand
Posts: 302
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 6:28 pm

Postby slowhand » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:22 am

Well done lad!
You will be able to register in England shortly because if you are shoeing in a EU country you will be able to register in the UK in time, so you will eventually be a 'UK REGISTERED FARRIER PART ONE' without the need for the extensive training that we provide to our apprentices in order that the world recognises them as you also do in your posting 'the best schooling' and 'the best farriers'. All farriers no matter where they are in the world recognise that it takes many years to develope the skills and experience needed to call themselves 'Professional Farriers' but they must also realise that they must learn from skilled tutors because to learn from someone, who was say, self taught in their own country to 'knock a shoe on' will be the level that they then carry to the person that they eventually train. In the USA it is possible to do a correspondence course in farriery and get a diploma from a 'shoeing school' however as you attended in person can you tell us how long you were there? and what is certified journeyman 1
There are some top class farriers in Europe but due to there being no regulation there are more poor ones and yes we have some in UK too! so lets hope you strive to learn the craft from people who know what they are doing and don't sit back with your certificate and think you've finally become a 'Professional Farrier'. Our system as stated by Cliff means that if you don't find an ATF you won't get a start so well done for not giving up. You have taken the route of some training at, I would imagine, great expense and as you could have carried on without it due to Europe not requiring you to need any to carry out farriery so you must be commended for that. I would also give the same advice to a UK apprentice with the ink not yet dry on his new Diploma and purely out of interest I would like to compare someone like yourself with one of our newly qualified Dip.WCF's just to see whether being trained for 4 years in our system is really needed because if you are doing a really good professional job then its time we looked at our extensive training with a view to changing it.

jb
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:22 pm

You took the easy way out!!

Postby jb » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:47 pm

I managed to retrain as a Farrier in the UK

When i started my Apprenticeship i was 43, took 6 years to pass the DWCF, as i broke my back half way through the training.
They don't give grants to people retraining who are between 25 and 50, and i had to remortgage the mortgage, beg, burrow and survive on £13 a day (before the national min. wage) and bring up 2 children, luckily one was already in a Farriery apprenticeship, and for a time i was under the same ATF as him, as his junior apprentice!
If you are determined enough, anyone can do it, there is NO reason why apprentices need funding, they should pay for themselves, and pay back the grants, when they qualify.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Postby PNB » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:33 am

jb,

You are of course correct, the obligatory element for successful farrier education [college fees] to learn a broad spectrum of the theory of horse shoeing costs is about £3k +/-, give or take per student. Which I feel is easily within the grasp of all if it were the only cost!! The current EEC/government grants would easily cover this cost anyway.

However in some form of historical wisdom, now outmoded by time, an agency the FTA which is incumbent within farriery training due to historical requirements, needs about another £10k per apprenticeship to administer this training. FTA I feel has been out grown and become an albatross/financial burden upon our Craft, its available finances and its training requirements.

This matter has to be urgently dealt with from within the FRC/WCF matrix and this point must urgently be demonstrated to central government by the rank and file craft [alone UKHSU currently fits that bill], failure to grasp the nettle undoubtedly will lead to de-deregulation!! It seems from my view point that we all need to read all the smoke signals now, probably it could be to late and that the decision has been taken by government to deregulate farriery, it is then not if but how soon!! I hope I am wrong however.

Some way has to be found to trim the current system to simply provide further education for trainees within an apprenticeship/college linked environment by cutting out the Farrier Training Agency's parasitic layer of bureaucracy from the equation. The symbiotic relationship of this agency, dependent upon training finances for its sole existence has to be broken. My personal view is break it or it will drag down farrier registration let alone farrier training, thus it then seems farrier registration will perish.

PNB.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Who posted that??

Postby PNB » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:26 pm

All,

HYPOTHERMIA what a scary thing. I have no recall of the content of the above posting, writing it that is, its sentiment is correct however.

Hot tea, a warm space/duvet and 2 hours shut eye put it right, however. Back with a vengeance now!!

PNB.

docfarrier
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:26 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL, USA

"The British System Doesn't Work"

Postby docfarrier » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:37 pm

Regarding Paul Clark's experience, I will state some facts which might be of interest, but first I must congratulate Paul on his perseverance.

The Shur Shod Horseshoeing school operated without legal registration on the state of Missouri, but due to lax enforcement of such laws it continues to do business.

Kelly Case usurped the name of the "Missouri Farriers Association," a group which was affiliated with the American Farriers Association (AFA). He registered the name with the State of Missouri, a step which the original group had failed to take. He then moved the name of the group to the Brotherhood of Working Farriers Association (BWFA). The original AFA-affiliated group is now the "Missouri Association of Professional Farriers," and is registered with the State of Missouri.

Paul would have fared better if he had known that the AFA already has a reciprocity agreement with the WCF, granting the DWCF to farriers who have successfully completed the AFA Certified Journeyman Farrier examination, after a two-year waiting period. Had Paul gotten good advice, he might have sought out a school aimed at the AFA program.

Paul says that he is a "certified journeyman farrier" with the BWFA. Such use of this title is illegal as the AFA owns this term under trademark laws of the US, and anyone granting this title or certification is in violation of the law. If I started a school in the UK and began handing out the "RSS" based on my own private criteria, there might be repercussions?

Certifications from the BWFA are suspect, based on my own experience: I was offered a "journeyman" certificate from the BWFA by mail in exchange for $50. No documentation of any sort was required. An acquaintance of mine successfully registered his dog as a BWFA "master farrier" under similar circumstances. I did not take them up on the offer.

The British system does appear to be too restrictive of entry. Some farriers from the UK have taken the route which I described above, coming to the US and obtaining a Journeyman Certification from the AFA, and then returning to the UK. The US system is not a system at all, but rather a totally unregulated free-for-all. Those of us in the US who have in the past called for standardization of farrier school curricula and taking a pro-active role in farrier registration have been subjected to vilification and personal abuse. The situation in the US does nothing to protect the horse or the horse owner from incompetent "farriers." The situation in the UK appears to place animal welfare above free entry into the trade by any and all persons, at the expense of personal hardship for some people wishing to become farriers. Some type of middle ground between the two ought to be possible, but reactions to such suggestions generate a lot more emotional response than reasoned discussion.

Mike Miller, CJF, AWCF

clogfarrier
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 6:56 pm

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby clogfarrier » Thu May 17, 2012 10:41 am

My name is Paul Clark and I have just found this forum and this thread regarding a letter of thanks that i sent to Shurshod Horseshoeing School. i would like to once again thank The private horseshoeing schools in the US in providing me with the chance to follow my dream. I have now been shoeing professionally for more than 5 years and have built up a great client list consisting of riding schools, backyard horses, horse events and charity organizations. i have held lectures for veterinary students at the Veterinary University in Utrecht and i am loving every minute of my career. For those of you that think i took the easy way out, i took the ONLY way out. In the UK if you can't find an ATF then you CAN'T train. Money didn't come into the equation for me. I was in the perfect position to train in the UK as a farrier, but due to the British system, i couldn't. The fact that i now can return to the UK and apply to take the examinations necessary without spending 4 years with an ATF is proof that the system now in place in the UK is ridiculous. I am now settled in Holland and have 2 children of school age so a move back to the UK at this moment in time is not on the cards. Also with regards to the comment about the AFA and the BWFA, I know that there is a political battle between the 2 organizations as to who THE horseshoeing organization of the US should be, However nobody can question the credentials of Max Williams the educator at ShurShod and to even try would be a real shame. To the rest that congratulated me, Thank you. I did what i had to do to achieve my goals, it wasn't the easy way out it was the ONLY way i could achieve them. I hope for every youngster with the desire to become a farrier, trained by the best farriers in the world, that more of the UK's finest take the steps necessary to become ATFs making it possible for their dreams to come true.

clogfarrier
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 6:56 pm

Re: You took the easy way out!!

Postby clogfarrier » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:01 pm

jb wrote:I managed to retrain as a Farrier in the UK

When i started my Apprenticeship i was 43, took 6 years to pass the DWCF, as i broke my back half way through the training.
They don't give grants to people retraining who are between 25 and 50, and i had to remortgage the mortgage, beg, burrow and survive on £13 a day (before the national min. wage) and bring up 2 children, luckily one was already in a Farriery apprenticeship, and for a time i was under the same ATF as him, as his junior apprentice!
If you are determined enough, anyone can do it, there is NO reason why apprentices need funding, they should pay for themselves, and pay back the grants, when they qualify.


So basically you found an ATF via your son?? Well then it seems you had the 'easy' way out. i didn't need funding or help, only an ATF. Think before commenting on other peoples lives!

mustang200
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:15 pm

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby mustang200 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:14 pm

iv been reading these threads about farrier training for a while now with interest,and have been trying to secure a uk apprenticeship for quite a few years with no avail.So maybe thinking of trying Ireland and making a new start,any advice about
securing a placement over there would be gratefully recieved.Looks like a good farriery school at co.kildare.
I moved to scotland in 2004 from england ,and after being told by one arrogant ATF that i was to old at 40 ,and wouldnt handle the work .And countless wasted letters to others every year who couldnt even be bothered to send an email back,i started my own business hoof trimming .As id already some experience trimming,working alongside a farrier back home years before the ATF rule came in.
Im now 47 years old and still fit and able covering most of Aberdeenshire ,trimming horses full time for a living for the last 5 years.And probably dispiced by most of the local farriers for it too.On a good day il do about 14 horses if theres not to much travelling inbetween jobs.First ATF please note not doing to bad for a 47 year old who wouldnt be able to handle the work.
In my spare time have a coke forge i built to gain some practise before starting an apprenticeship,thats just a waste of time now.
I love my job travelling the county doing horses and meeting people but just bloody frustrated that i can only do half the job,and should be making my living from shoeing.
Am real sick of the UK system ,and have looked at the USA route too ,but wondered if i might stand a slightly better chance{not holding my breath} applying in Ireland.Am well aware theres no financial help for somone my age ,not looking for handouts,just a fare crack of the whip.Am just totally disappointed with the uk system full stop ,and think it time for a change.

George Geist
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby George Geist » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:43 pm

For those potential apprentices frustrated about not finding a master to work with, allow me to share the benefit of what I watched happen here in USA.

When I first began learning the trade (1980) there were 9 million horses in this country. In the 36 years that have passed since then numbers have declined to less than 6 million. USDA Horse Census figures are public. Anyone can check them.
Additionally, Every farm I worked at in those days is gone. Bulldozed to make way for housing developments, shopping centers, industrial parks etc.

Whilst all this was happening the numbers of fly by night schools easily tripled. They take on a new class every Monday and vomit out a new bunch every Friday. If that's not bad enough truth be told no school is even necessary or legally required. All that's needed to be an America farrier is to wake up one morning and start calling oneself one. The market in most parts of the country is so saturated that most people can't make a living at it anymore. That's the American system. That's how it works here. High quality equipment, pre shaped keg shoes with clips already on them have exacerbated the problem because they have made it easier to do a decent job with a lower skill set.

To the apprentices having a hard time getting a position there's probably a good reason why. If a Master is busy enough to need help he'll take you. If not he won't. If nobody needs apprentices perhaps it's logical to conclude the health of the industry isn't that good? In the American system there is a lot of "Emperors New Cloths" syndrome. There is no real structured, legal apprenticeship here outside of a Union environment so when graduates are unsuccessful finding someone to slave for-as they usually are, they simply go off and have at it on their own. They usually get starved out of the business but not before trying desperation tactics like blatant trashy soliciting not unlike prostitutes, price cutting, slandering fellow workmen and a number of other undesirable things which serve to ruin a work environment and ultimately drag the trade down into disrepute. After 5 years in business only 2% of shoeing school graduates are still in business. This is a national disgrace.

It's shameful and is illustrative of what happens when an industry is totally unregulated. The British system is in fact the best in the world. If I had it to do over I'd have tried to get over to the UK to train. Make no mistake, you have something really great. Don't let it get ruined.

I'll finish up by saying this:
When it comes to your selves, your families, your homes, you'll fight to defend those things.
When it comes to your country, you'll defend it. Many of you have worn your country's uniform at some point in your lives to do just that.
This is your work. Your livelihood, your bread and butter, FIGHT FOR IT and DEFEND IT!!!!! :evil:
It's the right thing to do!
George Geist

For more good talk including a chatroom, come over and say hello. All are welcome
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby john ford » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:04 pm

George Geist, your posting on this subject has been the best read I have had for ages. Thank you sir for looking at this subject in a very well controlled and common sense manner.

ferrador
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:24 am
Location: europe

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby ferrador » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:15 pm

had the prvilege of meeting up with George a few years back a very articulate and intelligent man ,

George Geist
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby George Geist » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:07 pm

john ford wrote:George Geist, your posting on this subject has been the best read I have had for ages. Thank you sir for looking at this subject in a very well controlled and common sense manner.

Thank you sir, Very good forum you have here. I just found another fly by night school out in the midwest.(Where most of our worst ones seem to be located like poison mushrooms) This one will make you a farrier WITH CERTIFICATION in only one weekend! http://www.farrierschool.net/

According to this fellows advertisement it only takes one horse. He has his students do front feet on Saturday and hind feet on Sunday. Can't help but notice for some inexplicable reason I don't see a forge listed with needed tools?
Don't let this free market unregulated insanity come to your shores guys.

Hi Chris, hope to get a chance to see you again :grin:
George

Italian stallion
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:40 pm

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby Italian stallion » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:40 pm

Hi there George, I looked at that school and it reminds me of the deluded bunch of fools that run FRC, clueless to put it mildly, it's unfortunate that we always land up with people that no nothing about our craft let alone running it for an office with air/con, they tell me pushing a pen all day and drinking tea can be bloody hard work.

Regards,

E.w.

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby john ford » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:27 pm

George Geist, I will always remember spending time on a busman's holiday in the USA, at Cornell University whilst Mike Wildenstien FWCF was the resident farrier there. He had three apprentices who were not allowed under a horse, as a previous apprentice had been injured and sued the University and won his case. This was a sixteen week course, and Mike could only teach them shoemaking. It was an absolute joke, especially as the students really believed they were getting the best training ever because it was Cornell, one of the biggest Veterinary University's in the world. There are some top class farriers in the USA, but non of them got there through the bums-on-seats colleges and University's generally. Our system is no where perfect by a long shot, and there are qualified registered farriers here in the UK, that you wouldn't have trim your donkey, let alone shoe a horse, but that is because all over the world farriers are generally self employed, and providing no one checks their work they can get away with murder. As I say to all persons who are seeking a career in farriery; How much do you want it, because I can supply the tools, steel and fuel, but it is up to you to get everything out of it, in order to reach the top, for those of you who aren't interested in trying to reach the top, can fuck off and find employment elsewhere.

George Geist
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby George Geist » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:05 pm

Italian stallion wrote:Hi there George, I looked at that school and it reminds me of the deluded bunch of fools that run FRC, clueless to put it mildly, it's unfortunate that we always land up with people that no nothing about our craft let alone running it for an office with air/con, they tell me pushing a pen all day and drinking tea can be bloody hard work.

Regards,

E.w.

Hello Sir,
I would opine that FRC can probably be fixed. Our system can't. The way it works here is in about every 20 or so year cycles well meaning people figure out that what we have can be a lot better. People bring up the idea of compulsory testing and licensing. As soon as any mention is made of it the other ancillary businesses typically go into defcon IV to protect the status quo. I'll break it down as follows.

Suppliers:
Suppliers like high rates of turnover because it's profitable to them to set people up in business. Shoes, nails, rasps and steel they would sell anyway but things like anvils, forges, fancy truck bodies and such are really not very fast moving items. Plenty of people coming and going from the trade benefits them. Most supply warehouses in this country are little mom and pop businesses but they pretty much have to tow the line of Mustad, StCroix etc. Is all about business.
Schools:
These are the guys who always circle the wagons and lead the charge against testing and licensing. Their livelihood depends on running as many people through their program as they can. Some schools are better than others but majority tend to prostitute the trade shamelessly. It's very profitable for them and is truly dependent on the status quo.
Magazine Publishers:
These folks who don't produce a very good product themselves always seem to have an opinion and a negative spin on something that's really none of their rightful business. Nonetheless they are quite influential and it can be dangerous to get on the bad side of someone who buys ink by the barrel.
Newcomers to the Trade.
In this country it's estimated that those who survive their starvation entry period are very few. Some say as many as 80% of people in the trade are people working in it for 10 years or less. These people are in the building stage of their businesses. At that stage they are looking to grab all the work they can get and try to keep themselves busy. They're struggling enough as it is and they really don't want to hear about any more impediments to their business or barriers to entry. They certainly fail to see the big picture but I understand their mindset.

What do 3 of the 4 groups I mentioned have in common? They're all people who make their living OFF OF the trade not IN the trade. The working horseshoer who toils away with his head lower than his butt isn't represented at all. The American Farriers Association is largely run by these other groups. Their certification was brought about as a compromise in an effort to derail the idea of State Licensing. It did accomplish that but it's failed miserably in bringing about any improvement to the industry.

There needs to be representation and a voice for working farriers. They have issues that are none of those other people's business. They are certainly players and have their place but on some matters they need to just sit down and shut up. Working horseshoers should have their destiny in they're own hands and should have ownership of their own respective trade.
George

George Geist
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby George Geist » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:31 pm

john ford wrote:George Geist, I will always remember spending time on a busman's holiday in the USA, at Cornell University whilst Mike Wildenstien FWCF was the resident farrier there. He had three apprentices who were not allowed under a horse, as a previous apprentice had been injured and sued the University and won his case. This was a sixteen week course, and Mike could only teach them shoemaking. It was an absolute joke, especially as the students really believed they were getting the best training ever because it was Cornell, one of the biggest Veterinary University's in the world. There are some top class farriers in the USA, but non of them got there through the bums-on-seats colleges and University's generally. Our system is no where perfect by a long shot, and there are qualified registered farriers here in the UK, that you wouldn't have trim your donkey, let alone shoe a horse, but that is because all over the world farriers are generally self employed, and providing no one checks their work they can get away with murder. As I say to all persons who are seeking a career in farriery; How much do you want it, because I can supply the tools, steel and fuel, but it is up to you to get everything out of it, in order to reach the top, for those of you who aren't interested in trying to reach the top, can fuck off and find employment elsewhere.

Mr Ford,
I remember the case. It was a guy from New Jersey. The guys name was Walter-something. He had an apron on with straps hanging loose. He tripped over an apron strap and fell he then sued. I didn't know he won but figured they probably settled out of court. After that he scabbed on the track for a while up at Belmont Pk. I'm not by any means trying to protect his identity but I just can't remember his last name. There were plenty of other things this individual did to mess up the industry while he was around but suffice it to say he was a piece of shit. It's guys like him that have ruined the comaraderie that once was the best part of the trade. It truly was the beginning of the Barbarians entering Rome so to speak. That case very nearly ended the entire program up there. It was a major fight to keep it and Mr Wildenstein is certainly the unsung hero of it. Cornell is If I'm not mistaken the oldest such program in the country. To let it be ruined by a scumbag and his parasite lawyers would have been a crime.

Another big advantage the UK has over us is that you have certifications and qualifications for trainers and riding instructors. They earn their titles and prove themselves. Sadly, in USA their biggest qualification to teach horsemanship is being a barn owners daughter. These are the folks that make the shoeing decisions and teach newcomers. It makes for very fertile ground for scam artists and charlatans a la the barefoot folks, fad shoeing folks and so forth.
These scammers also in my opinion take a share of the industry and it's money to which they aren't entitled.
George

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby john ford » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:46 pm

George Geist, that wasn't the same story of events I got from Mike Wildenstien FWCF. Mike told me the lad got down on his hands and knees very close to a Shire horse they were shoeing, to get a closer look at something, when the Shire moved his foot up and across, and trod on to the lads hand causing a lot of damage to his fingers as you can well imagine with the weight of a Shire. Never-the-less which ever story is correct, the outcome was the same as my previous posting.

George Geist
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby George Geist » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:45 pm

john ford wrote:George Geist, that wasn't the same story of events I got from Mike Wildenstien FWCF. Mike told me the lad got down on his hands and knees very close to a Shire horse they were shoeing, to get a closer look at something, when the Shire moved his foot up and across, and trod on to the lads hand causing a lot of damage to his fingers as you can well imagine with the weight of a Shire. Never-the-less which ever story is correct, the outcome was the same as my previous posting.

You could be right. Whichever version is the correct one the thing that's indisputable was that this individual was a poster child for a prophylactic. It would be nice if they could be a bit more discriminating about who they could accept into these programs rather than accepting anyone with a pulse. The entire system is broken and just doesn't work.
George

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby john ford » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:48 pm

I totally agree with you George, unfortunately we do have the same problem here in the UK, except that a good Approved Training Farrier will try very hard to put a student off long before he/she gets into the apprenticeship system and becomes an employee, and under the watchful eye of the administrators of our apprenticeship here in the UK. Due to Government Funding, once an apprentice is in the system they will move heaven and earth to get that apprentice through, which in my opinion is wrong.

George Geist
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby George Geist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:12 pm

john ford wrote:I totally agree with you George, unfortunately we do have the same problem here in the UK, except that a good Approved Training Farrier will try very hard to put a student off long before he/she gets into the apprenticeship system and becomes an employee, and under the watchful eye of the administrators of our apprenticeship here in the UK. Due to Government Funding, once an apprentice is in the system they will move heaven and earth to get that apprentice through, which in my opinion is wrong.

I'm inclined to agree. Perhaps this is what happened to the OP? We have Government funding here too with the same result. If a school takes the money they cant discriminate. They have to take anybody including drunks and druggies being rehabbed, ex-offenders just released from prison, you get the idea. This vid spreads a little more cowboy hat wisdom that I'm sure you guys just can't understand how you got by without for so long:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcd845xvPbQ
Gotta wonder if that guy wrote that stuff down in that notebook himself or if somebody helped him with it?
In fairness though, that's a bit more business training than I got from the place I went to. But then again there is no educational standard nor is there any requirement for anybody to attend any school :roll:
Don't let your country be dragged down to this guys :cry:
George

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: "the British system doesn't work"

Postby john ford » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:22 am

I found that You Tube clip hilarious George Geist. At least in the UK our teachers are professional farriers who have done the job with enough experience to stand up and ad-lib to their audience. Just watch anything taught by Grant Moon, Billy Crothers, Jim Blurton.


Return to “farriers discussion board”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest