Equine Barefoot Trimming - Development of National Standards

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PNB
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EFFA.

Postby PNB » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:57 pm

All,

Any comments??

Where does that leave the Euro Farrier wishing to work in the UK??

PNB.

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:48 pm

pnb,

Thats simple there is now no real provision for the EURO FARRIER to work in the UK, it's been along time comeing but we should have been looking after are home grown talent years ago, never mind someone comeing here with dodgei papers.
Because jobs are hard to come bye the goverment has changed the rules to allow the the british worker first crack of the whip.


Regards,

E.W.

csc
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Postby csc » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:01 am

i Carnot see any change to the freedom of movement only regarding non eu persons however dodgy papers are always a loop hole

PNB
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Third World, Other parts of World, Poland CONFUSION>

Postby PNB » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:19 am

Stuart,

In her debate on Sunday, the Home Secretary included Poland as an example of being non EU, and the Polish as being non European Citizens, well that is how it appears.

There has to be more!!

PNB.

macfee
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Horse and Hound

Postby macfee » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:33 am

Morning chaps, there is an article on page 4 of horse and hound this week, as to barefoot trimmers.......Stuart :lol:

csc
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Postby csc » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:11 am

can you post it or the outline mcfee

csc
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Postby csc » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:16 am

peter poland is a eu state

PNB
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What a JOKE!!

Postby PNB » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:31 pm

All,

Have a look at the survey LANTRA [on farrier.org.uk, link above] did to set the terms of referance for Mondays meeting.

It seems LANTRA located and polled 91 bare foot trimmers. Seemingly 41 responded, which mainly comprises of part time self employed men who do not employ. Of that grouping it includes three specified foot trimming, trained farriers who now trim equine feet, and two veterinarians who trim equine feet. The bulk of the questions polled got a less than 100% of the 41 to accord, in very many cases a lot lot less. Many of the responders 91% do undertake statutory Acts of Farriery, [fit equine boots].

So what is the inferences to be drawn here??

My take: In the UK there are about 3,000 men empowered by Statute and formally trained within an Advanced Modern Apprenticeship Framework, who by way of Full Time Employment, trim horse's feet daily, in order to earn their entire living. Were any of these 3,000 polled in order to set the terms of referance for this monday's meeting and the proposed National Occupational Barefoot Standards.

A simply reply to that inquiry today from Lisa Jarvis, spokesman for LANTRA, "Farriers were specifically EXCLUDED", from the survey. It has to be asked why were the interests of [91], 41 part time responders placed above the consideration of 3,000 full time foot trimmers, [farriers and farriery apprentices], those who daily trim the feet of every horse they work with.

I feel without any other consideration this demonstrates the farce of the LANTRA innicitve for specified occupational standards for bare foot trimmers. In short are specfied foot trimmers in any context a true occupation??

I have to ask "What is driving LANTRA here, or maybe it should be WHO and why"!!

PNB.

bruce wilcock
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Postby bruce wilcock » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:07 pm

a National Occupational Standard (NSO) is to be set up for equine barefoot trimming. for further information ring Caroline Judd on 0845 707 8007 emal connect@lantra.co.uk heavy horse world spring 2009 give her a ring

PNB
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New poster.

Postby PNB » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:37 pm

Bruce,

Good to hear from you Bruce, have you any personal comments on this subject. How is life in the Highlands and Islands??

I rang the number yesterday, followed it up with an email, and Lisa Jarvis came on the phone before 8am this morning. I have to say she was quite defensive!! I wasn't really getting anywhere with my enquiries, so thanked her very much, and said goodbye.

PNB.

bruce wilcock
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Postby bruce wilcock » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:14 pm

hi ,i was thinking of giving her a call ,and asking her if there is funding avalable ,as i am a retired farrier and are looking for a job change . as to the work i have seen done by the trimmers ,its not even basic ,and the ones i have taken interest in seem to dress the feet in a random way at each visit , when i have commented acting as a lay man ,i have been given some world shattering theory mixed with bull shit to hold it together.

PNB
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Sipping from the poison chalace. Foottrimmers Beware

Postby PNB » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:47 am

All,

I wonder just what the foot trimmers think about the LANTRA's push to give them an Occupational Standard.

It is clearly flagged up in the objectives of LANTRA, that this is to be the start of a process leading to REGULATION. Both of our farrier representatives [Barnes and Craig] on the industry group state the establishment of NOS brings with it funding for that purpose, however, it is unclear if the funding is for trimmers or LANTRA!!

A strong caution, I was one of a group of farriers who set the foot trimming standards for our craft farriery in the early 90's, the craft didn't want standards we were all hacking along OK to that point with the Rural Development Commission, ONE FULL TIME FIELD OFFICEER and ONE PART TIMER, [SMITH AND PULLEN], and a shared secretary!! And what golden days those were, always 70 of us taking CPD evening classes in the winter months, all the apprentices getting one to one when needed, a with a happy informal smile, but it was always take it or leave it. This on site help was available for both employers and/or employees.

If only we hadn't Sipped from the Government Funding Chalice [FREE WINE FOR ALL], and established that bloody body politic desired syllabus, I may still have found employing young entry both socially and financially viable, and probably half a dozen more kids would have got their foot on the bottom rung of the farriery ladder. Well that is my take.

PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:25 am

i doubt if anyone will get any joy from lisa jarvis or lantra as peter stated they seem to be fixing the numbers to justify there actions
a farrier survey was done by lantra and only six farriers responded this resulted in actions within farriery training being put forward.
as chair of lantras allied veterinary group i am extremely despondent at the way lisa and her boss gorden McGLone say they represent employers i have seen very little evidence to support this only input from the public sector and trade associations
as a point of interest miles williamson noble is a trustee and i wonder how much input he has on the barefoot trimmers (judge jury hangman)
because of my involvement in farriery and radical attitude i can no longer support an organisation that fluffs the figures to make itself look good hence i will resign today

john ford
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Postby john ford » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:46 am

When it comes down to surveys being done within the farriery industry, and asking for input views from the same, we farriers are to blame every time, when things don't work out in our favour. In the resent elections for farriers representatives on to the FRC (Farriers Registration Council) only about 3% even bothered to vote out of 2700 farriers on the register. The same goes for every other survey feedback required from farriers, so what can any organization do, but carry on thinking they have the correct approval from the industry.

PNB
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Things is on the move.

Postby PNB » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:59 pm

John,

My take and I have said it to their face. LANTRA SHOULDN'T BE MEDDLING or FUMBLING IN THE FIRST PLACE, that is unless invited otherwise it will get them on a register!! But this invitation has to come from the true craft not from some self appointed and self serving winger. The trouble is if they didn't meddle/fumble they couldn't draw down all the available funding. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE??

I have formally suggested that in future all leads from our craft should emanate from your CRAFT APPOINTEES ON FRC and FTAC, they are the only ones who have the craft mandate to speak for you/us, which is something the WCF should rightfully respect.

I further feel it is the ABSOLUTE DUTY of the craft elected members to canvas craft feelings when ever appropriate. Stuart and I having agreed to sign up to the amended rules of council, and this was part of the agreement, the RIGHT TO CONSULT WHEN EVER THERE WERE IMPLICATIONS FOR OUR CRAFT. Now thats one huge change as a result of my refusal to sign last time!! In fact those present at Sefton House at the time on 19/02/09, and party to the agreement considered this highly desirable.

John, "Watch this Space", and please take The Claret out of the fridge and store it at room temperature.


PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:37 am

john you do not take into account the farriers feelings regarding frc we all now it is with contempt so frc stuff gets filed into bin

PNB
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Sorry, posted on wrong board first time.

Postby PNB » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:24 pm

All,

The barefoot meeting went just OK. Some early stage posturing took place between LANTRA and the farriers. A committee is to be put in place to establish barefoot standards in both bare footing and farriery. Which I personally consider unwise and not needed.

A few ignorant attitudes exist within the barefoot community, but not the Dan Gurrera grouping, effectively he accepted the National Occupational Standards [NOS] as they exist for farriery.

The EP grouping were a bit course, specifically the input from Richard V who was accused of talking GARBAGE when he accused farriers of turning well behaved compliant horses horses into Psyco's in a single shoeing. He seemed hell bent on causing conflict and should I feel in the future be well avoided.

Through and Through the concept of barefoot trainees working with farriers as assistants was accepted by DG, who was delighted that a slot for his students to shadow farriers possibly could be available!! and that barefoot acquired NVQ's could be transported into the farriery AMA.

Seemingly there are 5 groupings of equine foot trimmers, the TRICK LANTRA will need to achieve will be getting them to agree on a common NOS to meet all the groups requirements. They seem to have a common dislike to Strasser, but if they will agree between themselves, seems to be debatable. I worry about the negativity of getting accord from some of the members of the EP grouping, who I feel may well walk due in some part to their dislike of farriers and the way farriers do their work.

A close eye has to be kept here, it was suggested that all Craft Elected Farrier Members on FTAC and FRC should be involved in setting National Occupational Standards in both foot trimming and farriery!!

PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:14 am

the way i saw it peter is that that the foot trimmers want there own recognised course so that they alone could administer it.
there was only contempt regarding farriers and lantra wants the dough for the 100 represented by the 21 organisations.

admin
Site Admin
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from Lantra

Postby admin » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:12 pm

Dear Colleague,

Lantra would like to express their thanks to all who attended the meeting at Lantra House on March 2nd and for their contributions to an informative and constructive discussion. This discussion led to the unanimous agreement that National Occupational Standards for Equine Barefoot Trimming should be developed.

Our special thanks go to Chris House MRCVS, who I am sure that we all agree did a superb job in chairing the meeting, enabling all views to be heard and agreement reached.

The official minutes and a press release for the meeting will be circulated in due course and the dates and membership of working groups confirmed.

Best wishes,

Lisa Jarvis

Industry Partnership Manager

PNB
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Don't let yourself get conned. Contrived outcomes!!

Postby PNB » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:45 pm

Sorry Admin,

Thats not quite right, we were told NOS were going to be developed. I tried to get a show of hands on several occasions, to no avail, [denied by chair]. I further tried to get a show of hands as to an acceptance by the bare-foot groupings of the current National Occupational Standards in place for farriery, sadly again denied by the chair. Which in fact was something to a greater degree agreed to by debate, that is save 5 small running amendments.

I detailed the 5 barefoot trimmers agreed amendments post meeting to Mr Ablett, these were agreed by at least those trimmer grouping who openly discussed with me post meeting, and who viewed farrier standards of foot trimming as applicable for specified bare-footing, in a positive light, ostensibly the same group who have opened the formal bare-footing school in Yorkshire.

I think the fact is LANTRA want to develop National Occupational Standards and come HELL OR HIGH WATER ,that is what they are going to do no matter what!! I feel it must bring with it a significent financial reward for LANTRA ??, and/or possibly kudos.

Sadly I don't feel whatever happens matters a jot, the bare-footers already exist, they have indemnity, they don't need a licence to practice or to be on any register. What we said at that meeting does not in the big picture matter one iota. Less the 100 part time Barefoot trimmers have to prove they have a viable business plans in order to exist, both in order to show they are a true occupation and in order to get a viable client base.

How they will achieve this I don't know. If they get it wrong they can and probably will be prosecuted out of existence like the Strasserites. My gut feeling is they won't get it that wrong!! A short term pain in the arse for farriers, maybe, and maybe misguided but I feel their intent is good, certainly where directed towards the equine. I personally will not encourage then or again seek to obstruct them!! their impact is not sufficiently that critical to my part of the farriers craft or the equines welfare!!

LANTRA, gungho approach towards farrier democracy, worries me a lot more!!


I still feel this whole thing is all about selling education to the gullable!!

Stuart, Heitza, Mr P what is your take on this.

PNB.

PNB
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Keep us in the dark, and filled full of BULLSHIT!!

Postby PNB » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:45 am

LANTRA,

Please don't treat the representatives of our noble craft and the new foot trimming groupings like mushrooms!! You will find it difficult to survive in your job, without a great problem if you do.

Quote,"Lisa Jarvis, Industry Partnership Manager". End Quote.

I hope this is not our farrier Industry Partners she refers to. [WCF, NAFB&AE, FRC, FTA.]

In which case her view is not indipendent, and SELF APPOINTMENTED.

On your bike mate!! You lied to us at the LANTRA meeting, regarding your knowledge FARRIERS representatives resigning from your PAVS group, [Professions Allied to Veterinary Surgery], you got caught out, and had no get out apart from constructive bluster!!

The ex-member of PAVS grouping present at the meeting, the previous [not yet replaced??] PAVS Chairman told us that much. His resignation, it is understood was because he felt abject frustration at the way the groups views were being developed by LANTRA, and how farriers were being excluded!! It is understood he was left no alternative by your big boss but that he offer his resignation due to his feeling regarding democratic craft and employer representations to and at PAVS!!

NB, he was the second employer of mature Farrier employees to resign through frustration.

PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:50 am

quite right peter and you can see how lisa jarvis lies quite openly pretending farriers had been consulted when thy were not, and now saying it was all happy families at the meeting.
clearly she wants to ignore farriery views .
and yes its all down to finance
just think what this has cost the British tax payer, not only the meeting the food supplied for all. thestaff wages and those that were paid to attend, but the cost for two years before hand for 100 or so unqualified cowboys


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