L 11 Course, take one or loose your ATF status. Gloves on.

this forum is mainly for farriers - all are welcome but don't enter if you are easily offended!

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PNB
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L 11 Course, take one or loose your ATF status. Gloves on.

Postby PNB » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:25 pm

All,

You will all have got you reminder to take an L 11 course and ATF shoe making assessment. It really made me feel of worth and valued, my arse!! The fact is nothing has changed in the few years since I trained Jamie, what I know, how I do the job, how I train my employees hasn't changed, so why are they threatening me and disgracing my efforts by removing my ATF status?? as well as yours.

Why do these FTA letters have to contain a THREAT. Quote," Please be aware that if you have not completed both elements by thr 30th June you will be REQUIRED to reapply for your ATF status and bear all the costs" etc.

Sorry we were bullied until we reached a point of revolution, under Williamson-Noble, those days ended with his overdue departure. It is sad that those he trained at Sefton House in his abrupt and unpleasant mannerisms, haven't either been replaced, or seen the light.

I will now post a comment made above by Nigel Johnson regarding the current L 11 course.

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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: cpd



To all,

Back to CPD please be aware that if you have to go on a course ie L11 and you need to pass it they can dish you up any old rubbish and you cant complain for fear of failing the course and loosing your £395 fee

i went on one last week it started late and in the opening talk the assesor said i quote him WELL I KNOW NONE OF YOU WANT TO BE HEAR BUT.....

i did i wanted to better myself i wanted to be inspired into passing on my skills as a farrier and i didnt want to be assessed on my ability to teach my skills by showing a trainee how to put a center mark in a bit of shooing steel

i did complain if this is how our trade is going then it is nearly the end

nigel

ps i am a old farrier who takes less than a hour to light a forge

Nigel Johnson .

End Quote, "

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Being his representative on FTAC, at the request of Mr P, I phoned Peter Ablett today. He said the L 11 course is falling within his review of farriery training, and that he has spoken to Nigel Johnson several times about his very bad experiences on an L 11 course. He agreed it was not acceptable. He said he is consdidering taking L 11 within house.

I suggested maybe he should include Vicki Davitt in this idea, and that he should get her to write to us all of explaining what is in hand, just maybe then she will stop sending us these unnecessarily shitty letters!!

Nigel, What did Mr Ablett say?? was he helpful??

PNB.

mr p
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Postby mr p » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:43 pm

Well said Mr Baker. I am so glad it is not just me the FTA are using these hard line tactics, I thought they would have vanished along with MWN!? I do intend to seek advice from my employment lawyer, local MP AND ANY other suggestions from other employing farriers out there!? Is this suppose to be a human MOT SYSTEM or another TAX? We should stand up to them, we dont test them every ten years on their button pushing. They work for us or do they. Yours VERY,VERY UNHAPPY Mr P

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Postby csc » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:21 am

well the L11 and shoemaking is nothing to worry about its a dodle
yes it is a waste of time i agree but that is how the system was agreed in the past
if there is a enough people against it USE THIS FORUM TO TELL US then peter and i will bring it up at the next FTA meeting

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ATF conferance 2005? 2006?.

Postby PNB » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:50 am

Stuart,

Just my point, once an EMPLOYER HAS DEMONSTRATED his ability to successfully train apprentices, to undertake a DODDLE training excersise or series of TRAINING COURSES seems pointless. Educationally having no benefit to the participants, [Stuarts and Nigel's observation].

For aspiring, and new ATF's, OK, to make them demonstrate their emploter skills, little problem with that. In fact that was my motion prompted by Williamson- Nobles suggestion of a desperate need, [a minute exists of that ATF conference, verbatim transcript, poor quality taken by NAFB&AE], the motion was passed at the August 2006 [or 05 (?)] ATF conference, it regarded checking the skill and knowledge of NEW ATF'S before they were/became certified!!

FTA told me [on THURSDAY Davitt], "At that stage government funding could be drawn down"" so it transpired my proposal got re-drafted before being approved by council!! L11 and a practical test were implemented to be effected with in 5 years to boot, for all employer farriers,[ATFs], and not as agreed by the craft that any ATF status should be perpetual!!.

The purpose seemingly the effect for skill time proven EMPLOYERS, maybe to tick some boxes which seems most probable!! and all at the cost to participants, the employers of £395 to boot, A TAX you bet.

PNB

Chris Linssner
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Postby Chris Linssner » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:42 pm

Peter
My observations of the L11 are split.
I do not have to take an L11 as I am a qualified further education teacher. I did this off my own back for my own benifit and it by far superceeds the L11.
I have met farriers who have complained about the course and I have met some that have enjoyed the said course and have come away with something from it.
I do sympathise with Mr Johnson who seemed to have a bad time and did not get the information he wanted from the course but be aware that this is not a course telling you how to teach farriery but is about how to pass on information between yourself and another. It is only the most basic of courses and only runs over a weekend. My teaching course ran for an academic year and I do not feel that I am an expert in the art of teaching.
You do not have to take the FTA L11 course. You can take one in your local further education college. If they do not run one you will need to get a few guys together and they may help you out as several farriers from Sussex have done but I think it has taken longer than the FTA one to complete.
I have a question for you Peter.
What would you have instead of the L11 which as I have said is only the most basic of course, bearing in mind comments made by you on previous postings that not enough is done to help new ATF's to ensure they are capable of training an apprentice?
Another question. What courses would you make ATF's take to ensure that the apprentice gets the best training possible from his ATF?
I havent got an answer to these questions but if the L11 is the most basic it gets then how far should the FTA go to help in training new ATF's?

I too received a letter to tell me that I needed to update to the new shoemaking course. I havent bothered to do anything about it because I find it a bit of a slap in the face when I have been an ATF for all these years and I would like to think that I maintain good standards that hopefully improve as I get older and learn new things.
You and I have a history of learning together and I feel we certainly put our hours in back then for about seven years of further education in our own time and at our own expence and I do feel that if the same was on offer now for the younger farriers, it would be snapped up. People still have a hunger for learning.
However, I will take the shoemaking course in the near future as it will get it "off my back", but I will not be thrilled about doing another in ten years time.

Chris Linssner

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Postby PNB » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:19 am

Chris,

Thanks your ideas are really helpful, to which I personally accord.

L11, what would I do?? for new EMPLOYERS of apprentices, I don't feel it is to much to ask for them to demonstrate how and what they will be able to teach their young employees, fair enough.

For proven EMPLOYERS of apprentices, their track record is clear and can be judged by outcomes, again if help is needed, outcome is the best judge, help should be available, upon request. That was the rational behind RDC officers Laurie and Colin, and when I was party to the suggestion of FIELD OFFICERS within the NVQ/AMA matrix a decade or more ago and the role similar to RDC for seen that they should play.

OVERSEEING CONTROL seemingly was threatened at that stage, so we now have field officers that are not allowed to assess or verify, something as you so rightly demonstrated to me at WOODBOROUGH is wonderful oppertunity missed but hopefully not lost!!

Our saving grace could well be, and should be the new Training Director. He a Forensic Scientist with a background of using OBJECTIVE EDUCATION of police officers, his open mindedness, I really feel will shine through for farrier assessment and education, which may/would be a breath of spring to at least one farrier, who feels personally inhibited by the recent lack of expansive thinking and the very limited comprehension of just what is required within farriery and farriery education. Something to well demonstrated during the last decade, since RDC folded.

Forging, I agree again, past experience of successful out come I feel should be to the fore.

Availability of CPD and a record of CPD which is what we didn't get at RDC, however nearly all of us that wanted it achieved AWCF status!!.

Improvement classes, events and courses, again I agree, and this has been demonstrated to me by this new product, EQUITECH HOOF CAST, there are several farriers close and not so close that have taken up the use of the facility of having someone come and demonstrate or observed by watching a DVD of the using of this product.

It has been an eye opener to me how the thirst for CPD is there, the huge advantage is the bulk of efforts are sponsored by the EQUITECH Company, supplying and updating the required kit, their time and their attendence support where ever possible, for which they are compensated based on revenue from future sales.

The farrier demonstrating the application method gets his fuel costs from the client, and CPD points on his record, the delight of seeing, a comfortable horse, in an environment conducive to it repairing its own ills, some form of bonding with fellow craftsmen.

What's more it doesn't cost, simply an excersise funded by effort at ZERO cost at the point of delivery.

PNB.

Ps, Sorry if this is a bit scrappy, but I have quite as busy day ahead!!

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Postby Italian stallion » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:28 pm

csc, pnb, chris,

The L11 course was put in place for the first time ATF it was never intended for the likes of you guys that had already trained apprentices, however there was such a small number of new ATF that MWN would inclued every exsisting ATF in his new L11 course and you guest it, he had the numbers to make money, and thats what all this boils dowm to at the end of the day money.

Peter Ablett would find favour with ATF if he would bin MWN L11.
I would rather pay to have a assesment in my work place or out in the field where the reel training takes place not at some desk where most havent heard a word of what was said only to find they have passed the L11, i wonder why cant have you fail at end of the day MWN needed every man and his dog to be a trainer, so he could draw more funding and keep that nice job he gave himself.

Regards,

E.W.

n johnson
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l 11 course

Postby n johnson » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:11 pm

dear all
sorry about the delay in reply
this course is ment to be craft related that is why it should be run by F,T.A
it should be to test your abilaty to pass on the basic traditional skill of farriery as the students you are demonstrating on are not yet farriers horses cannot be used
therfor the only test can be passing on forge skills
atf required to have a coke forge should have no problem using it
our craft needs more than a test based on
SHOW HIM HOW TO PUT A CENTER MARK IN A BIT OF STEEL
the course is being redone i await the results

thanks for your time
nigel

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ATF conferance 10th May 2009

Postby PNB » Sun May 10, 2009 4:43 pm

All,

Great news from January 2010 L 11 courses and the ATF fvorging certificates will be free of charge.

I have put my name forwards for January.

PNB.

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Postby PNB » Tue May 12, 2009 12:56 pm

All,
I just wonder [prompted by one of the above readers], now that recently L11 courses [following the paricipant Nigel Johnsons comments!!] have been taken in house, because as we are now told the L11 experience/certification courses proved defective.

The question posed is, what plans are afoot to re-certify farriers who undertook certification under the defective L11 processes??

PNB.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Tue May 12, 2009 7:10 pm

Last Saturday, I had a 1st year apprentice in my forge for a whole day, who started his apprenticeship in January 2009. He has been to the School of Farriery for four weeks during this time. It took me 2 hours to completely revamp his tools and remodel his turning hammer handle from one that should have been a shaft for a pick axe. His stamps and pritchels were so big they could have been used to put nail holes in for a E14 Mustad in a Carthorse shoe. Not once had he been told or instructed how to refine his tools from the college or his ATF. He couldn't even carryout simple upright heels on concave. By 6 pm he was making concave fronts good enough to fit. This apprentice told me that he and his ATF shoe about 12 to 14 a day. He is taking off shoes, trimming, and clenching up, and has had a go at nailing on. What the hell is going on with-in this system of training. It seems to me that crossing the Ts and conforming to a book, is more important than teaching the basic arts of farriery even at the School of Farriery. On the ATFs side, I was asked by the apprentice why I wasn't an ATF any longer? I said: Today is Saturday young man. I have used my coal, my electric, my steel, and my time to teach you, and if I were your ATF I would now have to pay you time and half for the privilage. Will someone get off their ass and out of their cosy offices to see what is happening in the real world of farriery?

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Postby PNB » Tue May 12, 2009 8:07 pm

John,

Thanks for you comment and support.

I have email a copy of your posting to FTAMB via FTA.

PNB.

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Worthless L11 certificates.

Postby PNB » Wed May 13, 2009 3:28 am

Texter,

Thanks for that, but is having a worthless L11 certification, sufficent to tick the funding required/ demanded box tick??

Tell me, I have trained lads for a decade, all achieved and are highly skill in the workplace and work hard. In order for me to continue being a registered trainer of apprentices until Nigel made his comment, I may have needed to take the worthless course which told little more than how to find the point of balance of a short piece of steel, and how to take an hour to light a coke forge!!

So how would that have demonstrated anything and had any value as a box tick.

Thank you EW for your observations, of course for the tick to be of any value and meet even a basic of requirements, those that were certified under this route must need to be re-certified or maybe the concept of L11 has to be washed out!!

Yes, compensation from the training provider needs consideration, remember all the lads paid £395. Its has to be down to FTA to seek out compensation measures for us, and your wasted time!!


PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Wed May 13, 2009 5:49 am

lets face it the L11 course is a load of crap and needs to be binned its just another revenue gathering lets be a supper efficient bunch of w******
john i don't know what your lad did at college he must have been asleep the whole time. OUR EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IS EXCELENT.
but are not you the hero do you have a mask and cape

Chris Linssner
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Postby Chris Linssner » Wed May 13, 2009 1:50 pm

John

You are asking questions that you already know the answers to.
Apart from 4 weeks at college this Apprentice must have been with his ATF for at least 4 months asuming he started on January 1st.
The question is where is the ATF in all this. That would be the person who has signed an agreement to teach this lad(?). Maybe he has not started to teach the basic rudiments of farriery to this apprentice yet and it is on his agenda(should be conscience).
One thing is for sure is that this lad will struggle without help and may end up on the two strikes and out system.(see other threads)
For your information, block one at college covers;
making Pritchels, Punches and stamps including variants of these and includes tool maintenence, tong setting, hammer maintenence, forging tool maintenance, stamp fuller pritchel punch and tong maintenance. steel types mild and tool steel including normalising, annealing, hardening and tempering
He would also have made concave and plain stamped shoes which would have been assessed on the last days to ensure he is up to the relevant standard.
Maybe he had just forgotten to mention all this.

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Postby Italian stallion » Wed May 13, 2009 3:04 pm

Chris,
Nice to here from you and what you say should be true and looks good on paper returns to FTA.
sadly this does not always happen as we would expect lost time rushing to bring portfolio upto date and i could go on and on, and in all of this the lad that should have been assesed and found to have problems is more often missed and the upstart is if he ain't so popular god help him.
chris please dont tell me this does not happen because ive seen this first hand .
There is a need to overhaul the system but we need new faces not the yes boys that tow the line and only worry how it looks on paper we are playing with peoples live and there future dont play god HELP THEM.


Regards,

E.W.

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Postby john ford » Wed May 13, 2009 4:30 pm

CSC & Chris, you are the type of people I am referring to by saying: Those in high places and offices should get out in the real world of the farriery trade. Going through the motions of making tools is one thing, checking what is made and showing the apprentice how they work is another, and also WHY is also a very important procedure in the teaching of an apprentice. If you think that all this is down to the fault of the ATF, please explain to me WHY does any apprentice do practical work at the School of Farriery if it's all down to the ATF, and who is doing the assessment at college? Also if you think that this particular apprentice that came to my forge wasn't listening or paying attention, dream on. This person is 36 years old, and not a kid. It's not about what is being taught these days in an apprenticeship, it is HOW it is being taught.
Finally, CSC you think that everything is perfect with our training and the DipWCF exam. Well 2 weeks ago a DipWCF came to my forge with some X Rays. The horse he was shoeing became lame and the vet wanted the horse re-shod after taking the X Rays. The farrier couldn't understand why, until I pointed out to him that the shoe was 2/3rds forward of the centre of the coffin joint and only 1/3rd behind. Don't tell me everything is wonderful in the farriery industry, our teachers have completely lost the plot.

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Postby csc » Thu May 14, 2009 5:53 am

the reason that the college guys teach shoe making is to standardise the work.
as i am sure you appreciate that every farrier has his own way of doing things by setting an equal plain so to speak gives apprentices a form of equality when it comes to assessing i am sure that you appreciate what you think might be a good shoe another wouldn't so that is why the nvq standard was introduced to try and make a level platform for all.
the guy that came to you for advise shows you are respected for your views ,and you should put yourself forward as a farriery mentor as you are there anyway.
we are short of awfcl and fellows as most in the system are getting old so we need to produce some more to do this in small steps is the way forward as i see it .
and the newly qualified could go on to gradually do this using the cpd system .
however the establishment at present want to give you stupid points for attendances that go no ware
people like yourself who encourage others could be mentors helping and encouraging local guys with the odd afternoon in the forge and supporting them which i suspect you already do
but wouldnt it be good for the craft if we could produce a few more with higher qualifications instead of brownie points

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Postby PNB » Thu May 14, 2009 6:36 am

Stuart,

Brilliant response. It is already happening extensively in my area and without doubt country wide. Mr Hewitts AWCF self help courses in Yorks is a fair example, it use to be Salisbury, Plumpton Newmarket and Harrowgate.

To some degree now it is down to "Old Farts" like John, CSC, Heitze [Bell Inn] and I all regularly helping a few lads that see we have something to share, in one way or another it is easy to get called upon several days each month [even posting here takes up our time, what for in order to share, our inherent duty one accepted graciously].

That is CPD mate, I get points on the odd occasions I apply, so can every body else, but points are really an aside, the reason we have points is that in places detached from people that for time immemorial are daily involved it to processes of normal farrier share protocols. ie, knowing and shareing what actually happens in the STREET. I cite full time Class Room Based Educators, Office Waller's and Suits] who need to be able to show what is happening and tick boxes.

I think I know why tick boxes are required, but to post that would be seen as vindictive by some, what bollocks ain't it. However the CPD push has bought things that do and have happened by tradition for all time to notice. Bad?? no it has to be good, if only the word "OBLIGATORY" hadn't been introduced, then later denied!!

I sensed small elements/examples at the ATF conference with which I cannot accord. AN EXAMPLE, judged by a comment there, before a lad is referred his work has to be VERY VERY BAD!! [God, and that is what the public took away].Who said that and what category are they sitting in, you guess. The fact remains the standard is what EMPLOYMENT REQUIRES!! if other more elevated beings can't accept this, the fact is it is their problem!! yet others are made to suffer!!

PNB.

Sorry work beckons!!

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Postby john ford » Thu May 14, 2009 5:15 pm

Kind words from both of you but you are still missing a few points here. The majority of farriers don't wish to participate in farriery competitions, which I understand and wouldn't condemn any who didn't. But one thing stands out every-time I attend a farriery competition, and I really do believe that many of the things I witness at these events should be used as a bench mark in teaching our apprentices. Regardless as to anyone's interpretation to what a good job of shoeing is, certain procedures in these competitions are all the same. Tools for one, are sharp and spot on for the particular job asked for by the judge. Just look at all the tools these farriers have, and how they have shaped and forged them after buying them off the shelf, in order for those tools to produce as perfect a job as possible. If you can finish a job off in a competition for a judge for nothing, unless your in the prize money, why can't one do the same everyday when a client is paying you.
This brings me on to another point. ATFs in many cases will go out with their apprentice to shoe as many as they can before it gets too dark, or they are too exhausted to do another, which teaches the apprentice from day one, that he/she is no good unless a horse can be shod with machine made shoes in less than an hour, giving them no time to perfect any of their work, nor time to evaluate the particular horse that they are about to shoe, and above all no time to spend perfecting the tools they are using and making shoes in the forge. Many apprentices who are lucky to get in the forge are very often left on their own without their ATF or instructor being on hand. This leads to an apprentice doing something wrong over and over again which then becomes a natural fault which they can't reverse. This I believe also happens at the School of Farriery where instructors have other things to do, just leaving the odd apprentice to struggle, when a hour of complete hands-on with that apprentice could make a complete change in his/her ability.

PNB
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Lay this myth to rest!! You have let a cat out of the bag.

Postby PNB » Thu May 14, 2009 6:06 pm

John,

I agree with most of what you say.

But competition styles as the bench mark for good practice, you have to be joking. Even at the highest levels, competition practices, it amounts to wilful foot mutilation!!

Not the whole of it but at least two very important parts :-

The Judging of foot dressing prior to shoe application is the first element, who in their right mind would advocate the severe removal of dorsal wall horn prior to horse shoe nails being driven in it. I clearly remember that great man Tom Allison raising a serious issue at one of the higher examination courses run by RDC, regarding the judging of foot preparation prior to nailing. A practice if followed will lead to hoof horn degradation due to pre-nail extensive wall removal. I ASK YOU IS THIS GOOD PRACTICE??

The second instance, being the insistence of dressing away the dorsal wall in a straight line from ground surface to coronary crown TO REMOVE ALL THE PRESENT STIRATION, seemingly in the pursuit of cosmetic excellence, done during the process of finishing after clinching. Hoof horn dressed away above clench level, bearing in mind as well, the insistence on maximum height nailing, will take months to grow out and thus every time the animal is shod during that time if the style is pursued leads the dorsal wall horn simply gets thinner, dryer, more fragile, deeper structures being exposed and consequently far less able/lightly to stand the rigours of impact loading and the associated stresses.

The saviour being, a horse in the general run of things is subjected only once to the competition desired level of horn removal and hoof horn structure removal. Poor unfortunate devils.

John, Do you understand my points??

PNB.

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Postby john ford » Thu May 14, 2009 8:04 pm

Peter, I didn't say everything that goes on at shoeing competitions should be a bench mark, though I did say the refining and maintenance of tools was very much an important lesson to be learned from our top competition farriers, and the finish on work done. I think you may be mislead when you talk of: wilful foot mutilation: Many of the horses taken to these shoeing competitions have been shod very poorly over a long period, many with long toes and high sloping forward heels. As is the case with many types of feet like this, drastic trimming has to be done and the shoe fitted correctly to aid 100% function of the sensitive structures within the hoof. If correct trimming and shoeing was continued, the hoof walls would become strong with a thick firm periople descending down the wall. I've proved this time and time again. Poor feet don't repair in a week, but I can prove to anyone that within 13 months I can get a horses foot back close to normal, once I get 100% function of the sensitive structures. All we farriers do is fit the final foundation to the structures above, if that foundation isn't correct then everything above will collapse.

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Postby PNB » Thu May 14, 2009 9:07 pm

John,

You are teaching a granny to suck eggs.

So you are SAYING EVERY SINGLE HORSE that is presented at a shoeing competition has etc.

PNB.

Chris Linssner
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Postby Chris Linssner » Fri May 15, 2009 5:39 pm

Boys
There are two points I would like to make.

1. After having been heavily involved in Newbury show as chief steward for quite a while now I have observed what happens when a competitor tries to be too clever and make a (pretty) foot for the judge.A lame horse means no points for that class and consequently the overall show championship goes out the window. We will not tolerate a lamed horse.
I have seen this happen. A sensible competitor will talk to the judge and he will tell him exactly what he wants. Usually it is do not overtrim and do not overburn.

2. The competition circuit is a great training ground for apprentices.
From my observations, if an apprentice competes regularly then they are more succesful in their exams. Plain and simple.
It stands to reason that the skill level needed to compete is high and cannot be learned without much practice.
OK there are some very talented guys out there but from my obsevations (and personel advice) those that are not confident enough to compete will not be confident when taking their exams.
I always tell young guys and gals do not be put off competing by worrying what others think.
It is like the fat man going to the gym. No body will rib them because they are at least having a go.
You will always come back from a competition with something and I do not mean a prize.

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Good practice.

Postby PNB » Fri May 15, 2009 7:34 pm

Chris,

Your comment demonstrates a new level of post competition lameness checks, something that has to be applauded.

I then assume that after ever horse's foot is shod it is trotted up to check it is sound. Are the same level of soundness checks undertaken before the shoeing begins??

PNB.

PNB
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Pastorial care out of the work place!!

Postby PNB » Sat May 16, 2009 4:53 am

Chris,

I couldn't agree more with the second paragraph.

Quote," The competition circuit is a great training ground for apprentices.
From my observations, if an apprentice competes regularly then they are more successful in their exams. Plain and simple.

It stands to reason that the skill level needed to compete is high and cannot be learned without much practice.

OK there are some very talented guys out there but from my observations (and personnel advice) those that are not confident enough to compete will not be confident when taking their exams.

I always tell young guys and gals do not be put off competing by worrying what others think.

It is like the fat man going to the gym. No body will rib them because they are at least having a go.

You will always come back from a competition with something". End quote.

Comment :- Ok, but why are the kids not presently getting the same levels of confidence from their 12 months pre -farriery and the 23 weeks spent as part of their college based apprenticeship?? [ remember the farrier apprenticship is now 5 + years [quote chair FRC], I had it explained to me yesterday that due to the pressures of assessment and verification currently in place at the colleges, the pressures are not conducive to the kids enjoying the camaraderie experienced out of the college.

Is it a fact unless the specific student is attaining "A"grades the pressures make college a really unpleasant experience!!

Chris as an ATF and field officer, Is there any credibility in this comment??

PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Sat May 16, 2009 6:15 am

peter you are talking dribble mate. all my lads say they enjoy and get a lot from the college attendance and as for Chris's comment it stands to reason if a kid does competitions it will help standard and confidence
and regarding lame horses at competitions it should not be tolerated but we all make mistakes show me a farrier that has not lamed a horse

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Postby PNB » Sat May 16, 2009 8:16 am

Stuart,

We have a common accord then about the value of kids taking part in competitions. It certainly helped me prior to my examinations.

So then explain why there is a conflict between your apprentices and those of Mr P. Is it to do with the specifics of the colleges?? Is there more to it then meets the eye?? Is it important that you and I on FRC and TAC know?? I feel it is!!

Dribble or even Drivel it may be, but I feel it is important. Each apprentice costs us close to £14K to put through the college system, the Chairman of TAC tells us training of kids/apprentices how to shoe horses takes place in the work place; the common use of the handles Vocational/Occupational/Training Farrier would seem to support the chair of TAC's statement. Bearing in mind the cost to us the ATF £3K up front, [plus I would guess close to £70K to wage, vehicle and workshop each kid through the 5 years], and £14K to the Tax Payer, shouldn't someone be trying to establish the facts and be attempting to maximise the use of an expensive costly financial resource. I enquire in view of CTS above comment to what benifit or need??

PNB.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Sat May 16, 2009 7:04 pm

Stick to the basic point Peter. Regardless of the costs involved, unless we get a complete overhaul in the way new apprentices are trained, with everyone singing from the same song sheet, it wouldn't matter a jot if you spend £100 per apprentice or £100000 working the system as we have at the present time. If everyone keeps looking at the exceptional good apprentices and ATFs, and just keep teaching apprentices good and below average to just pass the DipWCF. Then the trade will be guilty of turning out a far bigger number of poor inadequate farriers to shoe horses than the number who have a natural ability in this country, because all they have done is passed an exam to allow them to shoe horses.
The apprentice I had last Saturday is entered for the Bath & West Show on 27th May. Last week he would have been better off staying at home.
Today after spending two hours going through fire control, and a step-by-step procedure in making two shoes, (Concave & Plain Stamp) I then told him he had 50 minutes exactly to make a concave 5 1/4" front from 7/8X3/8 for a No.4 Slim nail, hammer finished only to size. And a plain stamp 5" hind from 7/8X3/8 hammered finished to size. Apart from a few technical details, he finished on time, with both shoes cleaner than my kitchen floor, good enough for anyone to draw a clip and fit. After speaking at great length with this apprentice about how he was trained by his ATF and whilst at college, the one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb, was the lack of intense basic detail in a practical sense, into how and why each operation is done, and also shortcuts to get around individual problems. It seems that he was told at college to go away and correct something, but was never shown how to correct it. Finally, he had to make shoes to be assessed at the end of his four weeks, these shoes were made and then left in a pile and the apprentices went home to their ATFs. Six weeks later the apprentice get his assessment report which read that his nail holes were not very good apart from some other details.
Why couldn't the college do their assessment long before the end of the course, so they had time to correct the fault before the apprentice left? Six weeks is a very long time to keep on making the same mistake don't you think. First we have to stop going through motions whilst we train apprentices.

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Postby PNB » Sat May 16, 2009 9:33 pm

John,

I understood that is what NVQ was intended to do. Allow the most competent to fly through their summative assessments, be ticked of as competent, later moving on to the next vocational levels qualifying at their own pace irrelevant of the ability of others in their groupings. The less able were to recieve formative assessment at their own speed and get ticked off when they were ready by being able to achieve the relevant NVQ standard.

I feel it was never intended NVQ to be a college block process as at present, it should be an occupational in the work place assessment. I feel here bye lye the nub, it maybe didn't suit administrative expectations, there objective was to get the administrative funding and dish out about 38% of that money to the schools!!

Is it just maybe, the colleges were granted the power by a referral process to over ride the NVQ assessment "for everyone matrix", and concentrate their efforts on the A grade students to demonstrate administrative excellences?? By consigning the less capable directly back home to their place of work. A state about to become consolidated, as once referred home twice the employee will be effectively sacked by system, being kicked out of the training assessing system, an event then due to the Farriers Registration Act restriction will cause the apprentice to lose his employment!!. I ask WHY, and I will suggest why, " Is this because what the college requires is not the same as what the employer requires of his employee!!

I have written to FTA asking for the respective numbers of college first day referred students in order to get an idea of the size of the problem!!

Somehow, the colleges seemingly have assumed the right to refer students prior to any formal recognised NVQ assessment, and seemingly outside of the NVQ contract. My feeling is this does not as agree with the grant aided contract, the sending of the less able apprentices the ones that need formative help most, straight home.

I feel maybe OFSTEAD will have something to say about this practice when they next look into farriery training!!

Comments please!!

PNB.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Sun May 17, 2009 3:57 pm

Wherever there is a system built around a set of rules, to conform with other sets of rules, common sense goes out the window, and also standards, in the way people think or do anything in life. A good example is the case in question over our MPs expenses claims. From a set of rules laid down, respect for the greater need or picture no longer exists, and a, I'm all right Jack approach takes over. The people who run the farriery industry are mostly made up from the academic side of life, who may from time to time call upon us totally practical minded people for guidance, but at the end of the day will install their own academic version to please others higher up the ladder. Unless that ever changes, we will never see a change in the system that will benefit the whole farriery industry, and every horse in the UK

PNB
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Postby PNB » Mon May 18, 2009 6:17 am

John,

Your comment about a system built around a set of rules hits a chord, every one within the current system says AA's in farriery do not dove tail with government think, or the funding requirements of any other trade. our learning is hands on as the chair TAC stated, not a classroom exercise.

As we found out from the colleges the referral process put in place by the BODY POLITIC [MWN, ex-Military, Idealists] may suit their ends, but sure as hell doesn't accord with those existing for non farrier students of within the various colleges and universities that offer farrier training. The establishment are all bricking themselves just in case a disavowed student/ATF [one sacked or ATF loosing his status] goes to tribunal or the high court, [the solicitors are waiting in the wings to pick the bones, rubbing their hands]. £23K paid out to an ATF recently to satisfy his costs rather than take him to court, is a fair example, and that was paid out of your and mine registration fees!!


So what is happening now, another set of rules are being put in place to fit a system, a set of rules not construct under the remit of your elected members, one so complex I have tried to read the proposed amended version, but they are so complex with so many ambiguities, how the hell is a WORKING ATF going to grasp them??

Question's:- As a craft elected representative of FRC TAC should I expect to get involed in the rule construction process, on your the net providers of the funds behalf. In a way other than paying lip service to a pre-prepared document. Is that what you expected of you elected member?? 3 weeks AGO, I requested to be part of a formative elected working group to review any changes, it is no good just getting the new protocols to read without at the moment oppertunity to debate. If the changes get encrypted in stone I guarantee it will say approved by one of the committees, agencies, boards, councils, even one's you have elected me onto!! It bollocks once again.

How can our craft get a grip on things, when higher authorities within your craft matrix over ride normal democratic principle!!

As an aside, the government expenses pottage is at the fore, its about time we had a little glance at outside consultancy within farriery, pollsters, solicitors and all, to boot, and those who approve consultation.

PNB.

Sorry, a bit of a mess have work.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Mon May 18, 2009 4:15 pm

Well gentleman, after much discussion with many people over the last two weeks, not only have I learnt a lot, I have come to one main conclusion over this situation. Regardless of how loud we or anyone shouts about changing the system, as long as we have government funding of our apprentices, nothing will or can be changed to any great effect. So with that I am now resigned to keeping my head down and letting them get on with it, as I have better things to do with my life.

slowhand
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Postby slowhand » Mon May 18, 2009 4:29 pm

Well said John!! :drinking:

csc
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Postby csc » Tue May 19, 2009 5:53 am

spot on peter when you think that those elected are only there to give credibility to the system.
just look at farriery training with those elected to represent you and i having no clear vote. whilst a group of those persons whom we all know having complete control under the guise o FTAMB who the f*** elected you.
the TAC is just there to make things official
then we look at the cpd group i am on. they put in the minutes what they want to hear not what is said
with all these committees they all say no we cant do this because!!! whilst on the other hand seem to change things to suit themselves using the act consistently we are certainly under a dictatorship
AND ANOTHER THING for those who don't like what we say on this site F*** off and get your own but you wont because our site is interesting isn't it and we tell the truth and don't have to hide like the sniveling cowards you are behind organisations

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Stripes and out=Third Party Constuctive dismissals. DEBATE.

Postby PNB » Wed May 20, 2009 6:00 am

All,

What part of the below LANTRA statement don't FTAMB understand!!
[Abstract National Equine Forum conference 2009, minute of Madge Moore LANTRA's presentation.]

Abstract :-

How does an Apprenticeship work?

Delivered as a partnership with:
• the employer
• the provider
• the apprentice

Delivered by on and off the job training

Funding may be available towards the training

Recruitment locally or via the Apprenticeship website

What are the benefits?

Business benefits:
• Improve productivity & retention of staff
• Apprentices learn the skills specific to your yard
• Motivates the workforce
• Avoids skills shortages

Learner benefits:
• Earn while they learn
• Develop skills and knowledge which lead to nationally recognised qualifications
• Learn in a way that is suitable to the individual & their employer. End abstract!!

Comment:- Note the suggested employee and employer BENEFITS above.

I suppose that includes a THIRD PARTY constructive dismissal of a happy employee from his happy satisfied employer.

To the FTAMB and The Farrier Training Colleges:- Simply do you have AMBITIONS above your status> Think on if you feel you are going to win this one without a fight from the low profile EMPLOYERS and other craftsmen precluded from employing by system!!

PNB.

PNB
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National Farrier Training Chief Executive overruled.

Postby PNB » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:51 pm

All,

We heard at FTAC yesterday the even after Mr Ablett working hard to get the F11 examination on a free at the point of delivery basis, that decision has been "Committee Overruled!! ["Councillor SC"] presumably by the FTAMB but who really knows!!

L 11 will again cost ATF's.

What is more alarming, that this decision has been taken when the number of ATFs has halved to just below 200.

Even more alarming, is there seems to be a power struggle with one of the colleges presumably Myerscough, employing their own apprentices, using their tutors as ATFs, and tacking their apprentices onto the respective apprentice NVQ groupings. Hereford and Warwick were both at the meeting, they and the National Farrier Training C/E knew little detail!!

Mr Ablett said it would be a matter for him to look into.

The seeming good news being the College Apprentice Referral Policy [CARP] probably has been abandoned. Two Stripes and out seemingly now will apply to two times end of block NVQ assessment failures. I still feel however, LSC and Ofsted will need to look at this, personally it still appears to be a matrix for a contracted third party constructive dismissal may be being put in place, to enable both happy employers and employees to be separated and employment ended by a third party, the FTAMB.

The responsibility for the pedophile being allowed to continue his training and qualify was laid directly at the feet of recently retired training director, who it was stated acted alone regarding this matter.

It is hoped his judgement holds fair, whatever, FTAMB his employers have slipped out/been exonerated from any involvement!!

Out of time more to follow!!

PNB.

PNB
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Here's a bit more.

Postby PNB » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:43 pm

Question for OFSTED/LSC/LANTRA.

Regarding a one to one conversation today.

Regarding two stripes and loss of employment for failure to achieve an NVQ module. [As was explained by the current Chairman of FTAMB in the early 1990's]. When our craft had NVQs forced upon it , to enable the drip feed of central government funding, to sustain the cost of college attendence and the required administrative infrastructures.

I seem to remember it being encrypted within the FTAMB chairman's explanations, regarding the achievement of an NVQ module, it was achievement to a standard of a specified module, pass and fail didn't enter into NVQs.

Quite simply any student could then not fail any assessment, they would only in fact fail to proceed at a set rate and would continue with formative assessment until the desired standard was met, which then seemed quite fair!!

A apprentice/student seemingly now will not only fail or be it deemed to have failed. Now the non successful student/employee will lose his employment due to him not reaching the required standard at the same speed as all of his peers, seemingly he will lose his [FTAMB] contracted employer and be thrown out of the apprenticeship scheme. There further being an imposed financial penalty, [paying for his own retakes to boot], even though money/funding will have been drawn down for that purpose of NVQ standards achievement.

Something seems not quite right here!!

PNB.


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