Flame Devices Gas Forges. Craft Elected TAC member's enquiry

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PNB
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Flame Devices Gas Forges. Craft Elected TAC member's enquiry

Postby PNB » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:46 pm

All,

Well the NEW health and safety officer has yet again a very defensive attitude towards the working craftsmen.

There is a fairly significent caution for apprentice employers in todays Sefton House News.

Historically the Flame Failure Device [FFD] fitted in the most popular range of forges has proved insufficently robust to stand the test of time between routine services.

The ATF who I spoke to today, reported the FFD on his new forge failed to function within 7 weeks of the forges purchase.

Wouldn't it have been nice if the Health and Safety Officer FTA had opened her letter:-
"Having spoken to several working farriers regarding the Flame Failure Devices in their portable gas forges. The FFD's have come to our notice as being a health a safety defective issue. It appears this is a defective element of the portable forge.

It is reported that this [FFD] element of what is otherwise an excellent tool is insufficently robust to stand the rigours of the modern day farrier. The manufacturer has informed us the type Flame Failure Device used is under review. In the meantime a forge without an effective Flame Failure Device should not be used and the product manufacturer should be contacted without delay."

Wouldn't that be GOOD/BETTER PR!! and get the real problem fixed for the consumer!! without giving him a kick in the b----.

PNB.

Chris Linssner
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Postby Chris Linssner » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:18 pm

Dont be a prat Peter. How you are trying to score political points off this is obscene.
If your flame failure device does not work then you should get another. (from your comments i take it you never use a gas forge).
If it is not up to the job then you should barrack the supplier of the forge.
The fact is that the H&S exec have discovered this bypassing of the Flame Failure Device and are now on its case. God help the first employee to be injured from an altered forge. No insurance etc. a farrier could loose his house.
You should be thankfull that the FTA take the time to warn you of this. It is their job to oversee the safety of apprentices under their management.

PNB
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Prat or not, defective FFD's are now flagged up.

Postby PNB » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:50 pm

OK Chris,

Then the product is not manufacturer defective?? Did you read what I wrote??

My suggestion being:- Quote, "Having spoken to several working farriers regarding the Flame Failure Devices in their portable gas forges. The FFD's have come to our notice as being a health a safety defective issue. It appears this is a defective element of the portable forge". [Which is a fact].

"The manufacturer has informed us the type Flame Failure Device used is under review [which is a fact]. In the meantime a forge without an effective Flame Failure Device "SHOULD NOT BE USED" and the product manufacturer should be contacted without delay." End Quote.

So, its political points to flag up a product defect. I ask, so, what is fair in the Sefton House News is not fair on the horses mouth?? Where do POLITICS COME INTO IT!! It's called facilitating product recall!! Which happens in the Auto Motive Industry quite often!! then the manufactures even gets named!!

I suppose the field officers haven't noticed that FFD's in many cases are bye passed?? including at the FARRIER SCHOOLS!! ask your apprentices, I have.

Why can't FTA be pro-active and be seen to be thus?? I have spoken with them today, the report is they have spoken to the manufacturer even before my phone call. Seemingly they are ashamed of being seen as a medium to fix problems for an employer, their image seems to be we have to be seen to be down on him and only be interested in the Employee. An attitude problem that will bloody change!!

The liability now one known about, thanks to your contribution, without doubt now jointly lies upon the FRC's TRAINING PROVIDER SHOULDERS!!

So what are you saying " Your bosses the FTA are simply trying to slide out from under their statutory responsibility, as training providers for identifying a safety problem, by the passing of 100% of any outstanding liability onto the user of a defective product, and wholly onto the person that has bought and paid for that product?? That seems to be the case here, THANKS A BUNCH!!

Chris, by the way FTA is not the responsible body here, this is the FRC, the FTA is simply a name used by FRC for their training provider group/agency . Perhaps this item should have been placed in the Bulletin for all farriers to see, they are as much at risk as the employees!!

One thing for certain the product should get fixed now.

Thanks for the response, it will help the employers cause!! As their elected member on both FRC and TAC isn't that part of my role?? to boot.

PNB.

mr p
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Postby mr p » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:08 pm

Mr B YOU ARE RIGHT. Ask the question, if you did 99% would say they stop working after a few weeks!

john ford
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Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Postby john ford » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:18 pm

After the first day of buying a new gas forge I disconnect the FFD, as I haven't the time or patience to keep my finger pressed down on the red button for the dam thing then to go out when I release my finger. I am fortunate now not to be an ATF or an employer, or I would have to change things. That said, I can't remember seeing a farrier around here waiting 10 seconds for his forge to light up, nor having his gas bottles stored in a metal enclosed cabinet.

Chris Linssner
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:25 pm

Postby Chris Linssner » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:27 pm

Peter
No it is not political posturing to flag a defect but it is in the way you hammer the FTA for doing just that.
I read and re-read the piece in the Sefton house news and in no way can that be put as anything but information given in a clear and concise form.
I would call that being pro active. Obviously you do not.
Its just another pointless attack on the FTA who are doing a job of informing you of HSE law, and you do not want to fall foul of them.

I am surprised you did not pick up more on the new Asbestos restrictions being put in place. That must effect nearly evey farrier in the country.

PNB
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Impact Assessment!!

Postby PNB » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:39 am

Chris,

My take, you are in effect being told, if you use a mobile forge which I suppose 99% of the farriers in the uk do, which is either not fitted with a Flame Failure Device or due to the fact the FFD fitted to has been modified, you are breaking the law, and should an incident happen with it under those circumstances you "Could loose your house".

So the direction is 99% of you are daily breaking the LAW. OK that is a fact and mobile forges must not be used daily. Fine that is what the law says. The law is inflexible!! I actually believe the direction is statutorily correct, the duty of the employer to his employee and attendant client is paramount, I don't have a problem there. If you read what I posted I don't think I said anything else. In fact I think that is what you said about my personal pratice, Quote," From your comments I take it you never use a gas forge. End Quote.

My gripe is not with what was being said but in this specific, the way it was presented.

Suggestion:- I feel it is important that the product of FTA should be subject to a full indipendent of author, "IMPACT ASSESSMENT" before it is circulated to our craft, that way the responsibility for either its correctness or impact on our daily practice will become the responsibility of an agent. I feel no desk jockey without knowledge of what a farrier "HAS" TO DO IN ORDER TO DO HIS JOB could know the impact of little bit being writing in a flyer. I still maintain in this instance proactivity by WHOEVER to demonstrate how the problem could be fixed would demonstrate an historical shortfall in empathy towards our craftsmen, and lessen the painful effect of telling them that daily they are doing something that is illegal and, "could cost them their house".

The effect today as a consequence of the piece is that any farrier of the 99% of the craft who hot shoe out a vehicle or use a gas forge in their workplace, that is not fitted with a fully functioning with FFD is advised/directed to fit all his future shoes COLD!! Just maybe the regulation varies when using such a tool in the open air, perhaps our Safety officer would look into that, as I don't know!!

Yes Chris that includes me, I have 2 gas forges bot of which don't have FFD, the MANUFACTURER REMOVE ONE FOR ME, the other an AMERICAN VERSION doesn't have a FFD fitted to it and never did, it seems I can't legally use it either now!!

PNB.

Ps, I am Sorry about this mess, as your elected member on TAC I feel I have let you down, but I am trying to fix for it the future however!!

PNB
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Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Use of gas forges without functioning Flame Failure Devices.

Postby PNB » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:35 pm

All,

I have been involved most of today trying to find a resolution to allow as an interim move, farriers to continue to use their portable gas forges until the Flame Failure device issue is sorted out. Seemingly the manufacturer is in the process of upgrading the FFD in order to assist with its durability.

In the mean time the Training Director FTA, has suggested some common sense approaches to this problem, which as an interim move may enable your GAS FORGES to continue to be used until modification!! At this moment in time the advice is still unless a fully functioning FFD is fitted and is functioning un-bypassed/unmodified on your gas fire, the forge should not be used.

His common sense approach has to be run through with a health and safety [law] expert/professional. He has promised to keep us on "The Horses Mouth" fully in the loop.

PNB.

Ps, I tryed to speak with the FRc Health and Safety Officer again today as Mr Ablett was tied down in meetings most of the day.

It seems the new Health and Safety Officer is currently on leave.

PNB.

admin
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Health and Safety

Postby admin » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:38 pm

We understand that the FTA have agreed to consult with farriers elected representatives in future over any contentious issues.

PNB
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Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Postby PNB » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:18 am

Admin,

I suggested to FTA that upon contentious issues, ie, telling 99% farriers that they were breaking the law and would not be indemnified if an incident occurred, if they continued to use their mobile forges to apply hot shoes in their daily work place. This failure was a published highlight in tne "Sefton House News"

Seemingly the reason for the article being the THERMO COUPLING on the Flame Failure Devices were insufficiently robust to allow normal forge transportation.

An accord was reached with the FTA health and safety officer, that the craft would in future be invited to become involve in an impact assessment for any future craft altering out put on Health and Safety issues.

The decision was a common sense matter I have no doubt, one that demonstrates new levels of communication are possible between our craft and the body politic farriery.

I have further suggested that at the proposed FTA conference time must be set aside for ATF's to state a case for any shortfall within the training matrix, and any matters raised to be the subject of GENUINE CONSIDERATION during the following year. I site as an example the £100 each ATF had to pay following the last ATF get together which seemingly proved to be an illegal requirement , yet the charge of a £100 was never refunded.

PNB.


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