CPD or not CPD

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csc
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CPD or not CPD

Postby csc » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:57 am

last night at our meeting it was discussed to have another section for farriery ideas questions etc for farriers but those there did not like the word CPD has anyone any views on an alternative name?

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Background.

Postby PNB » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:40 am

All,

Following the two publications that said or implied that CPD was to have an obligatory element, [something vigorously denied later]!! The initials CPD generates strong negative reactions within our craft. Ironically initiatives to allow farriers to get together watch, chew the fat and COMMUNICATE with each other are pursued with great vigour. As an example the UKHSA get tog ether's at the BEAR HUNGERFORD led to the meeting room being filled, as well as Stuart and Heitze's meetings at the Bell.

So the energy is there for ongoing craft skill development, it is the method of sale that has failed!! One thing, like the NAME INITIALS "CPD" or not, the anti passion for the dreaded three letters has made many of us acutely aware of the efforts to share knowledge, experience and research within our craft that exists, and the passion that can be easily stimulated by leadership not directive.

Is this new??, no way the Rural Development Commission did it all the time, the Salisbury Evenings, the parallel Northern School[?] and The Newmarket Classes, the Pullen Lectures, the NAFB&AE HQ weekend pre AWCF courses, it only took two motivated\and highly skilled men to make it work!!. It now seems how ever these efforts presented some sort of institutional threat, and RDC was phased out, or maybe those craftsmen that became involved were so successful in their pursuit for higher qualification, the need simply dried up!!

For almost two decades mature craft education ceased, the infrastructure was lost and the teaching forge premises lost to the craft.

Opinion: Here the colleges could help, but my feeling is it would require a separate from college staffing infrastructure!! to be put in place. The workload with NVQ assessment which is placed on the college staff has led to burn out for anything other than the apprentice students, [with the possible exception of Myerscough].

A re think maybe required, so much successful mature and apprentice support education was achieved by Colin and Lawrence. Is there is a need for something similar ??

PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:33 am

we all agree cpd is a dirty word made so by the bad attitude when presented however the principle is good,exists, and has always been popular as we intend to have a section on this forum for new views and ideas and a place farriers can ask there peers for advice with difficult situations we need a name for it. now peter without war and peace any ideas

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Ongoing education, post graduate for a purpose!!

Postby PNB » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:59 am

Stuart,

How about "Post Graduate Studies", much warmer with an underwritten acceptance of a significent level of skill and knowledge. Pretentious?? [well just maybe!!].

The achievement of a set number of "FAYE" [thank you PA], satisfactory learning, research and published modules should lead to a WCF achievement examination extension, a "Masters" tag.

Would that be progression, and lead world wide to UK farriers laying evidence of "EXPERT WITNESS"??

PNB.

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Self funded CPD by 2011.

Postby PNB » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:53 pm

Stuart,

I was interested to hear about 70 of the 2600 farriers in the UK submitted their CPD record cards in 2008!! I wonder how many who submitted those forms, are actively involved in the processes of CPD delivery, I know one this leave 69.

What was more astonishing bearing in mind the great hunger there seems to be in the street for forms of ongoing education, [to prove this look at the stand alone groups, Steve Hewitts, AWCF grouping, Mark Caldwell's foundation degree course Maescough College, The Equitech science, [top side of 70 have showed active interest, loads of others have taken a DVD about 400 after the last thrash].

The question has to be what has gone wrong with the inicitive?? The early suggestion of "OBLIGATORY" would be my best/first guess!!

The sub standard L11 certificate/qualification runs second an expensive bit of pointless/valueless administrative paper (£395 a throw) tick boxing.

The exclusive nature of those invited as the steering group runs third.

A change of tack is desperately needed, with more working craft input with people who are prepare to accept such craft input.

A cash cow, I can't see how just yet, but you bet your b---- that is part of the plan!! I am amazed that within 1 1/2 years by 2011, the forecast placed before FRc on June 10th 2009, is CPD will be able to sustain an administrative infrastructure and make a profit.

I have to ask how?? Possibly by a levy, what on the 69 others who filled in their 2008 record card.

Steering Group come clean?? How are you to become self funded by 2011?? What plans are hidden presently?? It seems the craft will have to become the net contributors, so are not the craft entitled to know??

I rest the case.

PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:40 am

the problem with cpd is they used the rod not carrot and farriers see the points system as childish also there are only so many courses and once done where can you go
the courses are run for profit nothing wrong with that except i would like to know how many are generally interested in farriery rather than profit the way forward must be to encourage and insight farriers to achieve higher levels of education the dip being only the beginning
the way forward as i see it is with mentors
this system already exists it just needs to be recognised for example john ford is a mentor but does he realise it
i strongly believe those that mentor should be recognised

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Postby john ford » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:27 pm

Stuart, Handmade Shoes run their courses free of charge, and I have attended three of them and every time food and drink are on the house.

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Free Handmade Shoes CPD!!

Postby PNB » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:04 pm

John,

So where is the forecast CPD revenue stream??

PNB.

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Postby csc » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:08 am

yes john you are correct are there any others

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CPD is available on a daily basis, at small or zero cost!!

Postby PNB » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:59 am

Stuart,

Equitech's Dr John Gilpin is only to willing to bring along a road show to any CPD function to demonstrate his revolutionary Equitech Technology the method of dealing with both common and complex lameness's related to degradation of hoof capsules.

All mentors of the WCF, from my grateful personal experiences are only to pleased to provide presentations for nothing or for very basic expenses. Dr Giles Holtom, Mac Head, Dave Collister, Simon Curtis, both the farriers from the Royal Veterinary College have proved only to delighted to be asked!! Billy Crowthers, Carl Bettison, Alun Bailey, Alan Woodyat, Dr Chris Collis, Jeremy Ridgeway his practice partner Martin [an enquiry about outlines of neurectomy last night], Paul Farrington, Clive Hamblin, Jenny Hall and the partners, Simon Knapp, well all of my local Equine Vets practices do the same, often on a One 2 One basis, when asked!! The list is endless!! [Sorry to have missed out several dozens of others!!]. To boot, I have never had a telephone enquiry I made turned away.

I feel from my findings, it is only a case of asking!! I extend my thanks to all of you for the all information which over the years, I have drawn from my contacts with you.

PNB.

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The conundrum, A CPD revenue stream, HOW? Mentoring licence.

Postby PNB » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:08 am

Stuart,

A formal Structure to CPD to establish revenue streams.

You introduced the words "Established Mentors". So it seems that is how obligatory CPD will happen, another cash cow's milk to keep the funds flowing and percentages to be creamed.

It was pointed out to me yesterday, that all it presently needs is for CPD to be made "A Condition of Continuing Farrier Practice", certain parameters have to be put in place, then enforced!! To enable a self funding CPD revenue stream to happen.

Suck the suggestion, this was the suggestion and forecast outcome, is seems this is already happening?? "It will be a balancing act, to satisfy a present hunger for learning, and need a metamorphosis from hunger to learn, to having to learn by obligation in order to sustain a licence to practice"!! [in order to stay on the UK Farrier's Register].

Opinion PNB, Empire Building!! The needed moves:-

1, The establishment of an "AGENCY" to both licence, MENTORS and regulate their CPD outputs!! It struck me then, The New "NATIONAL FARRIER TRAINING AGENCY" [NFTA], has that ring about it!!. An establishment to be sanitised in the highest places, to oversee all farrier training, over and above the Advanced Apprenticeship as is it's present remit!!

[Mentors could then be licenced and a fee structure established for them to deliver formal CPD, and a formal network of student's fees and charges put in place. Coupled this with a formal CPD fee/wage structure for CPD delivery, one that could easily established and enforced as conditions of the FARRIER's LICENCE. CPD being directed by the Central Agency, NFTA]

2, The "CODES OF PRACTICE", within the new, 2006 " ANIMAL WELFARE ACT", [conditions of ongoing practice already exists], it simply needs to be developed then enforced to include the element of compulsory CPD.

[To this end the formal, Farriers Code of Conduct has had appended into it, an ongoing CPD condition. I was on that formation working committee, CPD was included within these Codes of Conduct, at the insistence of the Current Chairman of FRC, after the conclusion recommendations at the formation group meetings]!!

So to my way of thinking the structure already exists to establish a CPD revenue stream and to satisfy a formal CPD administrative structure, one has been put in place, just possibly by stealth.

GOOD BAD OR INDIFFERANT, its just possible the CRAFT could still kick it out!! We need to talk to each other. Are you happy about a compulsory CPD element for our craftsmen?? Do we need this?? I simply don't know but I don't think so, but sure as hell I would have liked to have been made aware of what was around the corner, and just how it was going to be crow barred into place!!

PNB.

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Postby Italian stallion » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:51 pm

pnb,

We keep going back to mention compulsory CPD.
Firstly that will not happen under the current constitution of the FRC, BECAUSE IF THEY FORCED CPD ON ANYONE THEY WOULD BE BREAKING THE LAW AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
The only way foward with CPD is we farriers come under the SAME constitution rules as vets and that we answerd two them directly and only then.

Regards,

E.W.

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Stealth.

Postby PNB » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:22 pm

EW,

Sorry, I feel it now can happen, as within the 2006 Animals Act, there are certain responsibilities placed upon the person to optimise their care of, and the way they care for horses!!

IT HAS BEEN IMPLIED BEFORE COUNCIL, that under this section that there is therefore an implied "Duty of Care", towards horses by people that work upon them!! It has been quietly mentioned that this duty of farrier care will/may be encrypted within a voulentary CODE OF PRACTICE [supposedly one laid down by the "Body Politic"], a code of statutory practice which will include the dreaded CPD element. Nothing more was said, and no questions were asked, yet I heard and have remembered even though at the time there was no CONTEXT!!

Comment PNB:- I personally feel compulsory CPD will be loosed upon our craft in this way, I can see no other way for the body politic to establish a revenue stream to maintain an administrative structure by 2011.

By another route??. EW can you see one??

PNB.

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Postby csc » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:50 am

could CPD become mandatory ?
we have said no in the past but i feel this could happen
as i am on the cpd group how do farriers feel?
watch this space

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We had NVQ forced on us!! then recently NOS, and next??

Postby PNB » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:09 am

Stuart,

CPD compulsory?? Your recently posted question, this question was asked on the 24th June 2009, [above], but then no one seemed to give a dam!! as no responses were made!!

The question was, [Quote] "GOOD BAD OR INDIFFERANT, its just possible the CRAFT could still kick it out!! We need to talk to each other. Are you happy about a compulsory CPD element for our craftsmen?? Do we need this??".

Comment:- I simply don't know but I don't think so, but sure as hell I would have liked to have been made aware of what was around the corner, and just how it was going to be crow barred into place!!".

I feel, that your evidence demonstrates that maybe it is possible a upgraded network of licenced "MENTORS" is presently being considered, or even being put in place!!

PNB.

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Postby csc » Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:48 am

peter i feel that the mentors situation is unpopular with the establishment as it seems quite popular with the working craft and the wcf feel it may be undermining there authority and cpd witch is not the case.
we have a point system used in all professions in the uk but it costs!! mentoring doesn't
simon curtis is at present in dialogue with me and i expect to be removed from my duties on the cpd steering group and possibly frc
as i believe i was elected to represent the working craft and there views
he believes i should represent the frc.s views
basically if i don't support the frc decisions then i will be removed

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"Give me the power, I'll give you the jobs", &quo

Postby PNB » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:08 am

Stuart.

There you are Stuart, democratic principles at their best. You were voted in upon your election address, I feel it is now plain to see that the CRAFT ON MASS need to take action!! Stick in there mate!!

Then maybe the "CASH COW" does not milk within an established MENTORING SYSTEM. Its got to be all down to drawing down funding from a central source, keeping no maybe putting bums on seats and jobs!!

PNB.

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Postby john ford » Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:18 pm

CPDs if made compulsory will only benefit those farriers who already go to such events, the others will continue to do what they already did before they attended such seminars or training courses. I would welcome CPDs to be compulsory if it meant that a few of the ignorant mentioned above would benefit. I also believe that all our mentors out there should charge for giving up their time to pass on their knowledge to the rest of us, especially on a one-to-one basis. I have always insisted that my mentors accept payment for their teaching, if they give up their time for me to go to them, or they help me on the the job with one of my clients.

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"A TAX", on learning, maybe??

Postby PNB » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:02 pm

Stuart,

Taking that Fordy is the sole responder, it seems we have to support COMPULSORY CPD !!

Fordy seems to be strongly in favour of the concept, it seems he is willing for us all to pay when we take our compulsory CPD!!.
PNB.

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cpd

Postby pop » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:21 pm

I had the pleasure today to work with a young man not to long qualified ,for the princely. sum of two bacon buttys and a pot of coffee ,i had a very good lesson on hoof rebuild and gluing a shoe . I am old enough to be his granddad learning never stops ,and when freely given is beyond price.

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Postby csc » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:42 am

thanks pop for you advise weather freely given or paid for we all agree it is a good thing
should cpd be compulsory personally i haven't made my mind up
is our points system good and fair no it favours the few
now the big question fordy whos views should i represent the craft or establishment those that elected me or the frc

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Postby john ford » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:56 pm

CSC, the FRC is or should be a democratic organization which controls farriery for the benefit of the horse and no one else. You put the case for farriers as a representative of that body but should stand along side the council when a majority vote has been cast in favour of your views or against your views. And you should not rant or rave outside that meeting if the vote goes against your views, as you can carry on debating your case later at other meetings if you feel that you can change those members on council to change their minds. That is one thing that Peter couldn't or wouldn't grasp. All the chairman is saying to you Stuart, is debate at meetings, and stand by the democratic majority vote that is taken at those meetings, and don't carry on outside to other people who can't change anything because they have no place on council to support you.

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Fordy do or say something CONSTRUCTIVE!!

Postby PNB » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:11 pm

Fordy,

I don't think you have a clue how FRC is loaded against a democratic voice for FARRIERS.

How ever that is a side issue regarding CPD!! The question that maybe Stuart needs guidence on is, [and I certainly don't know, even how I feel about this!!]:- "Does the working craft "WANT" to have to undertake COMPULSORY CPD, and to have to pay a not insignificant sum for this CPD, which it seems will be in order to remain on the UK Register of Farriers".

European Registration is in all probability a side issue here as a standard of less than NVQ 3 is suggested as sufficent for outside of UK farriers from any of the other 25 States to EU register, then to come to work in the UK if they so wish!!

So, Is it YES or NO to compulsory CPD??

PNB.

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Postby csc » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:50 am

that is not you talking fordy
as elected by farriers am i or am i not there to do the working crafts will
and do i or not have a responsibility to consult them by whatever means i have available
your statement says i should except everything and go with the flow once unanimously decided only presure brings change
as for the good of the horse that depends on what is decided should that decision be by farriers or accountants

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Postby john ford » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:52 pm

I suggest you read again what I wrote CSC. You can debate and argue as much as you want, but after a vote has been cast you have to abide by the decision of the majority of council. You can press for a review later if you feel that farriery (NOT FARRIERS) is being undermined by an earlier decision voted on by the majority of council. Remember the 1975 Act was bought in to protect the horse and not Farriers. Finally, I am speaking from my own experience and not as a nodding donkey to anyone in the industry.

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Please do, or at least post something CONSTRUCTIVE!!

Postby PNB » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:39 pm

Fordy,

The vote has NOT YET been taken, "NOT YET", OK.

You are part of the CRAFT of FARRIERY and part of a delivery system of "HUMANE ANIMAL WELFARE", so "WHAT DO YOU WANT"??

Is that to difficult to ANSWER!!

Any body??

PNB.

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Postby csc » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:55 am

yes fordy you are avoiding the cpd question
regarding your views everyone i have spoken to and i am not talking about peter or the usual crowd has all agreed with what i have said however once a decision has been made on council YES i must accept it
fordy i have done this i sit on the cpd committee. they who put me there new well my views prior to me going on that committee
I WORK WITH AND ON THE CPD STEERING GROUP i don't have to have the same views the aim is not to be petty but to find something that works FOR OUR INDUSTRY cpd cannot survive as it is.
why because it has limited funding and at present is being supported by the fta its not in there remit to do this
it does not have farriery support
the points allocation are seen as a joke
and farriers in general don't give a toss about it
fordy i am not trying to screw the system up i am trying to make it work that is why i am promoting the mentors system
because of bitchy ness within and jealousy over its success the folow up has already been refused publication in the bulletin and i will be lucky to get it in the forge magazine
so when people show enthusiasm and initiative that will benefit the horse in the long term its poo pooed
that is why we use the horses mouth as a form of open debate to let people see what is happening OPENESS AND TRANSPARENCY

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Postby john ford » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:50 pm

But you must agree CSC that some form of updating in knowledge of farriery is good for the industry. And if we have a number of registered farriers sitting on their laurels, and choosing not to keep up or better their knowledge and skills, then this will only do harm to the industry as well as the horse that we are all in farriery to protect? When you have a registration act to protect the horse, it is only common sense to make sure that the highest standards are maintained. Leaving it to the individual farrier to decide defeats the object.

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Postby Italian stallion » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:01 pm

csc,
I for one am against compulsory CPD as there are people out there willing to share and teach for the love of the craft, so why should we pay when there is loads of CPD for little or no cost.
Yesterday we had a seminar at my forge, MUSTAD paid for everything food and drink and a goody bag woth £25 each sietheen farriers were present and all said they just dident have a great day but the goody bag made them feel they had been paid to attend.
There's lots out there at no cost to the working farrier so why would anyone wish to burden the working man futher.

Regards,


E.W.

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Postby john ford » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:57 pm

EW, I would agree with you when a company such as Mustad or any other company that sells products to farriers should be free, that's why I attend seminars organized by Handmade Shoes etc. But if a person is giving up their time without anything to sell, to make it worth while, then why the heck should they give it for free.

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Postby Italian stallion » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:33 pm

John,
Let me point out to you MUSTAD had a diplay on site bit had no items for sale.
Those that wish to be paid might find it difficult to teach at seminars when you have the likes of GRANT MOON JIM BLURTON RICHARD ELLIS TO NAME BUT A FEW THAT TEACH FOR THE LOVE OF THE CRAFT.
John there are some real good guys out there and some bloody greedy ones that are no longer on the tools, i think you will find those are the people wishing to make CPD a profit making machine
When sixteen farriers turn out on a tuesday for a seminar of there own free will that should tell you that they hunger for education so tell me John why make CPD compulsory.

Regards,

E.W.

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Postby csc » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:30 am

ew your comments are spot on there are loads of groups out there and what goes on should be recognised that's why i am promoting them to recognise the effort without authority that goes on i firmly believe there is more things organised privately by groups of farriers than officially organised
however i still think that there is room for those that charge if they want to all of this is cpd and should be recognised
fordy answer my question i cant of shut you up so soon

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Postby Italian stallion » Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:26 am

csc,
I agree entirely with what you say, people that wish to charge is fine but lets give every farrier the freedom of choice.
For instance i would not attend a seminar on how to sharpen a knife thats my choice many would disagree and love to attend so lets no force anyone to attend seminars that dont suit there needs, FREEDOM OF CHOICE csc thats the key factor in education.

Rgards,

E.W.

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Now we are making sense.

Postby PNB » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:07 am

EW,

I accord with that real common sense approach to CPD, I have absolutely no doubt the vast majority of our craft will run with both Stuart and your analysis.

Seems Fordy is in the majority of one, and COMPULSORY CPD is dead in the water. However the storm caused by the idea of compulsory CPD actually highlighted a desire, then the points system enabled the body politic to get a view of what has been going on, [unrecorded] for time immemorial.

I suppose CPD to that end has been a great sucess, and could have well stimulated an increased level of post graduate studies, to some degree a good excersise.

Compulsory CPD it's a no brainer. CPD should be unregulated and as far as it is possible at zero cost at point of delivery.

I ask that anyone who feels this is the appropriate way forwards makes their point to the membership of the joint WFC, NAFB&AE, FRC, FTAMB CPD Steering Group as loudly as is needed to make them listen and at every oppertunity!! Then it is essential they openly express their support for the efforts Stuart Craig is making through his membership of the Joint CPD Steering Group on your behalf!!

PNB.

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Postby Italian stallion » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:37 pm

csc,
Look no futher Craig d'arcy at cottams quote- IF CPD BECOMES COMPULSORY WERE IT MEAN KNOCKING ON PEOPLES DOORS TO ATTEND THEN I WILL WALK AWAY FROM IT - end quote.
He now holds a position of power at NAFBAE lets see if the man is as good as his word, simply ask him csc to support you with what farriers wish for a system that works for farriers not for people sitting at a desk.

Regards,

E.W.

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Postby john ford » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:53 pm

Get your facts right EW. Richard Ellis charges over £100 per day to teach at his forge just outside of Teweksbury and is flat out doing so.
As far as the other comments made about CPDs, how many hours would each of you give up in your working week for nothing but a thank you. It seems that many of you will boast how many you are shoeing and earning each week, but when it comes done to putting your hand in your pockets to pay for something that could in the long run earn you more, you shrink away pleading poverty.

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Postby Italian stallion » Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:47 pm

John,
once again you have put the cart before the horse you are talking about his working week as he's entiled to earn a living, however iv'e been to two seminars at blurtons were RICHARD ELLIS was teaching no charge was made to anyone that attended now that what i call FACT maybe you might check yours next time.

Regards,

E.W.

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Postby john ford » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:09 pm

Great EW, then please accept my invitation to give a days teaching here at Hillcrest Forge next month, for a few cups of tea and a sandwich. And I hope you won't be charging me for your fuel, or any time away from your work or family commitment's. I can also have a horse here for you to shoe, naturally I will supply the electric, steel, coal, nails, and pay for any insurance to cover you and others whilst you are here.

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Taking the p---, fordy style!!

Postby PNB » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:06 pm

John,

Thats dam rude. Any man is offering you CPD and your requiring him to come to you. I would have thought it only polite of you to travel to his place of work. I have little doubt you would get a warm welcome!!

PNB.

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Postby csc » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:48 am

fordy you still haven't answered my question
earlier on this thread you criticised in a way charging with your ref to handmade shoes
now you seem to say its ok to charge
THERE IS ROOM FOR THOSE THAT WANT TO CHARGE AND THOSE THAT GIVE IT FREELY fordy is right Richard does charge and gives his time freely we all have to earn a living
over 1300 farriers for this past year have cpd points
finance for cpd is getting thin
compulsory cpd is being debated
all other professions have cpd and points
the view at the top contradicts what is being said here the view is that cpd is a success with figures to prove it
thank you ew for the bit about craig unfortunatly he was not at the cpd group meeting yesterday and i do not know how he views all this

csc
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Postby csc » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:58 am

unless farriers revolt on mass cpd is here to stay for the foreseeable future
i proposed yesterday that we have a tesco club card system whereby points can be exchanged for discounts /gifts from suppliers and Sarah Jane Millard said that a frc registration discount might be a idea WE ARE LOOKING INTO THIS MY EMPHASIS IS ON THE CARROTT APROACH ALONG WITH MENTORING.mark spriggs from tfp proposed that funding come from suppliers in return for advertising
but let me asure you i am totaly against compulsory CPD

PNB
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Taxation, Taxation.

Postby PNB » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:57 am

Stuart,

Well the CPD group seem to have shot themselves in the foot some what.

More than half the UK farriers already undertake CPD, they are the ones that actively record the points. I bet many more undertake a knowledge upgrade regularly, yet don't record the fact!!. Does any of the craft then see a need for a formal registration infrastructure. SO WHY??

Does CPD REGISTRATION bring some form of third party financial advantage with it?? Simple question then why if there is no financial advantage to the registration body, is there a need for a compulsory element to CPD, and a record keeping infrastructure with the associated non educational advantageous associated costs?? The CPD process is proven to exist, so why??

PNB.

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:36 pm

csc,
Craig D'arcy is out ot the country at the moment as i phoned his home last night to see if he was going to stand by his own comments.

Regards,

E.W.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:28 pm

We can go on and on about this subject forever, so let us all now take a step back and look again at what the FRC Act 1975 was set up to do. First it was to protect the equine from poor farriery and poor farriers. An act to protect the horse, not one to protect farriers like me or anybody else. That said, surely the body that has the responsibility to encourage all forms of higher education either in practical or theory of farriery should be welcome to the equine owning public, and especially the horse. Also let us not forget that the medical and veterinary profession have to keep up their standards because they also are a regulated profession. Unless all of us farriers try and act in a professional manner, by the way we run our business, treat our clients, and continue to raise our standards and knowledge, we will forever have to put up with our governing body on our backs and cracking the whip. The veterinary and medical profession don't have the same problems with their governing bodies because they don't have to be told every minute to act in a responsible manner. And before you all jump up and think that these words have been placed in my head by another person dream on. I have just got a lot older and wiser by being in the trade for 39 years, and still enjoying it, as if it were my first year in the trade.

PNB
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A MAN WHO NEVER ANSWERS A QUESTION!! Commerce Rules OK.

Postby PNB » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:45 pm

Fordy.

Prove your statement!!

Your quote:- "Unless all of us farriers try and act in a professional manner, by the way we run our business, treat our clients, and continue to raise our standards and knowledge, we will forever have to put up with our governing body on our backs and cracking the whip."

I AM A MEMBER OF THE GOVERNING BODY, it don't happen from there!!

Where is your evidence?? That in the vast majority of occasions that professional manner is not the NORMAL CASE?? The fact is mate as you have screamed since this UKHSA discussion board started, there is a vast choice of who a client can get to shoe their animals, Act Unprofessionally and our clients will relocate their trade. Lame their horses through bad workmanship and its going to cost us. Half the registered men are actually now proven to be undertaking CPD!! So where are you coming from or who is driving you??

You and I have been asked to swallow that the Registration Act was put in place to protect horses. A long held suggestion was that to wrap it in that way, was the only way to get A Registration Act onto a STATUTE BOOK in the UK in 1975, was to flag it thus!! READ HANSARDS!! [Remember the French got their failed statue on the grounds defective hoof care put riders at risk!!

My feeling differs vastly from the ones you record above, as for a long time did yours!! Who or what has made you take your present stance!!

PNB.

slowhand
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Postby slowhand » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:54 am

Hello lads! I have'nt logged on for a while but as I have been out during the night [ my other job] and I'm sitting with a cuppa I thought I'd have a look. CPD seems to be the big question so here's my input as a 'working craftsman' I am not interested in it and I am not going to do it compulsary or otherwise! Now before you all get in a tizz I spoke to 5 other farriers last month on this subject - 1 newly qualified dead keen!
1 apprentice dead keen! 3 others with over 15 years exp each don't want to know! So you can all get worked up if you like but the majority of farriers with 20+ years at the game see it as a job that pays decent brass nothing more! When they are presented with a difficult job they give the owner my number 'cos they can't be arsed with the grief! so CPD hasn't got a prayer. I am now starting to lean that way because after 40 years of this I feel I know all I need to know about shoeing a bloody horse!.. At 4 o'clock this morning I picked up a 35 year old mother of 4 kids all under 10, who had got up to use the bathroom and dropped down dead and I had all the kids bawling and screaming because I was taking their mam away...CPD I could't give a F**K

csc
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Postby csc » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:58 am

cpd it seems is being policed by the cpd steering group this to me seems that they are trying to make cpd elitist and selective
unfortunately incentives by independent farriers are being excluded which in my mind makes a mockery of cpd
i am absolutely convinced that the wcf are out of touch with the working craft

Chris Linssner
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Postby Chris Linssner » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:06 pm

Stuart

I have been following these CPD postings with a mixed view of bewilderment.
Of course CPD is being policed by the CPD steering Group! Is that not their job?
How does that make it elitist. The only way it can be elitist is if you stop certain people from doing CPD. From what I have seen the opposite seems to be the case where they are trying to get every farrier involved. And I have yet to meet a farrier who is as against CPD as the postings on this forum suggests. Perhaps the silent Majority are satisfied that they understand that CPD is in their best interests.
Farriers do enjoy going to CPD events.
I know you do not like the name so suggest another. You also do not like the points system. Yes it seems a bit twee but will you please suggest another way of giving participants a way of recording their involvement.

This forum seem to think that CPD is some sort of farrier phenomenon.
Please google the words and see that there is a big world out there where CPD is compulsary.
The farriery industry must be seen to police its own CPD before the choice is taken away from us.

csc
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Location: berks

Postby csc » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:06 am

chis you might be surprised to hear i totally agree with your comment everyone agrees in the cpd principle
however you are missing my point i am sorry i may not have explained it very well so i will try again
cpd is being done all over the country and only a small amount is being recorded that means as you say those farriers enjoying going to venues are not receiving points at least two thirds of cpd is not being recorded that is because the cpdsg group for which i am a member are policing it.
the point i am making is that we are making it to complicated ALL CPD SHOULD RECIVE POINTS
you may argue well someone needs to police it WHY!!!! when you get a point to fill in a form to someone who gets nothing for attending or organising a local competition its called fairness
at the moment we have a elitist few we need to encompass all of FARRIERY
I BELIVE THAT THE CPDSG GROUP IS WORKING IN THIS DIRECTION
however to gain credibility it needs to be more farrier friendly so that more farriers will see the points system as a benefit
if you read my blogg throughout you can see i actually support and promote cpd I JUST WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING THAT STARTED OF BADLY have a positive out come i suppose to sum up my gripe as stated in my last blog is the wcf who have little idea of the ordinary working farrier who sees farriery as a job to suport there family and listens entirely to the keno brigade
so unless i make a noise who will hear the views of the working craft
so whats this all about? the pompous attitude of some of our leaders

PNB
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Our craft will get what it is GIVEN. Then TAXED for it.

Postby PNB » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:25 am

Chris,

Your Quotes:- "This forum seems to think that CPD is some sort of farrier phenomenon".

"Please google the words and see that there is a big world out there where CPD is compulsory".

Chris, Do you think we are so SIMPLE!! That we don't know CPD takes place else where??

The kick is not against CPD, but to open up debate about making something that is proven to be presently undertaken free of cost, by the majority of farriers regularly, to make it "COMPULSORY and VERY EXPENSIVE" seemingly in order to introduce a "Revenue Stream" to create an administration office and pay another layer of fees/costs.

Isn't this what has crippled this Labour Government and The County presently?? [Vast administrative infra structure to create worthless paper mountains, for/on failed projects?? Education- Health- Forces- Pensions, Social Services [Baby P]- Drugs- Yob Culture even bin collections, these are examples given in the Express, Sun, and at the Labour Conference on Radio 4, yesterday!!

Your Quote :"The farriery industry must be seen to police its own CPD before the choice is taken away from us." The Industry?? WHY?? - The Industry seemingly don't even get a proper say!! Stuart in on the STEERING GROUP, see his above comments or ask him!!

Comment: I feel farriers are seen to be making an/their living and money to easily, when the administrative offices who create paper for papers sake are struggling to finance themselves - as well as apprentice training and at all other platitudes.

FAILURES ie:- CARP referrals, NVQ assessments, Dip WCF break down, college closures. Forging Certificates, then useless L11's, [their implementation leading to a fall to half the numbers of ATF's of two years ago, 400 to 200] with the associated massive deficiencies in training outcomes. Examples of centralized CPD working?? It's B--ls

CPD, maybe it is percieved as the latest CASH COW, a way of forcing the working craftesman to have to chuck money towards the administrative structures!! ARE WE BEING CONNED?? Are we being purposefully excluded from being allowed to ask why by not being allowed involvement??

Many questions, but no open to view answers to date.

PNB.


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