a need to strenghten farriery?

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csc
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a need to strenghten farriery?

Postby csc » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:55 am

i hear on a daily basis discontent on various things CPD for example i find it difficult to find farriers who support the points system on the other hand i have the establishment telling me what a great success it is
then there is farriery training well the different views and outlooks makes that topic a complete minefield
one thing that is clear however is that there is a central core within farriery that does not encourage any views whatsoever and those that try and put views forward are shunned and silenced
N A F B A E was once the backbone of the working craft now sadly just a nodding donkey to its master
however many groups of farriers seem to be evolving independently
i now ask the question wouldn't it be nice for these groups representatives to meet or give there points of view on a thinking tank forum

PNB
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Destitue.

Postby PNB » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:49 am

CSC,

"The central core" is the working mans problem, how right you are.

Self serving, preverse with even corrupt elements are words expressed to "Our Registrar" recently!!

Take the rules of FRC as an example, an employee walks away with a nearly new vehicle at his own price, then the chair ignors our own rules as "It is my last meeting and I will do what I like".

NAFBAE, they got close to £100K for doing a job, allready "Done in House".

The future is grim for registration indeed, maybe it is time to end, The Charard of Craft Involvement and Sudo Consultation!!

Thank the lord seperate groups are ploughing a furrow of their own. I applaud them, is there any other viable farriery infra-structure??

PNB.

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:42 pm

csc,
These groups wish not to share or meet with you or anyone else for that matter as they fear anything good they might have or are doing that does not sit well with WCF, FRC, WILL BE CRUSHED, SO CHOOSE NOT TO LET OUTSIDERS IN.
I can only see that as a good thing as prevention is far better than cure. Take this nonsence of returning your CPD CARD TO RECORD YOUR POINTS THERES NO NEED TO RETURN YOUR CARD BECAUSE YOU SMIPLY NEED NOT ITS YOUR RECORD KEEP IT AND BY DOING SO WILL SAVE FTA A FORTUNE IN ADMIN COSTS.

Regards,

E.W

csc
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Postby csc » Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:46 am

ew i respect that these independent groups want to keep to themselves and agree with you regarding your statement with reference to the establishment
these groups started because they wanted to shun the establishment as they felt they were not being heard let me assure you nothing has changed and those elected to represent the craft are just puppets peter has just given you a answer to show that and as a elected member to the fta am only their as a advisory capacity
but what i would like to see is maybe one person from each group start a dialogue with me and others through a private e mail so a elected member am able to promote your feelings and attitude so i can represent the craft more efficiently this in turn would ensure their independence what do you think

PNB
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Funding CPD administration!!

Postby PNB » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:10 am

EW,

Well said.

The central core, [to quote CSC, who is a CPD steering group member] certainly see a revenue stream of some sort coming from self delivery CPD, [presently self delivery CPD may be the the only/all the substansive CPD taking place!!]. The group saying, CPD administration will be self funded by the end of 2011, so then just how without a revenue income??

So where is the Revenue Stream then?? It has to be sourced from the participation groupings and the qualified farrier students!!

EW, it seems there are then genuine needs for your fellows concerns about being pirated, well that is hows I see it from my view point.

Bear this in mind, FRC and FTA their totally dependent child, are prohibited by Statute and their own rules from funding or getting involved in Farriery Education after a point of qualification the become a UK registered farrier, debatably this may even be at NVQ level 3, the end of the true government training subsidy.

The central core's arguement being, FTA can impliment CPD, but soley as a requirement for gaining and sustaining Approved Training Farrier Status. ATF status I feel may not stand a challenge through the courts, as it is without doubt trade prohibitive!!

We may well soon see!!

PNB.

PNB.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:21 am

CSC,

I will listen and help until my terms of office end. I then propose to offer a disiplinary and red tape breaching professional witness service to our craftmen and their legal advisors.

I AM NOT PREPARED TO BECOME AN ESTABLISHMENT [central core] "MOLE!!" under any circumstances.

How could anyone hold their head up in that circumstance??

PNB.

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:03 pm

csc,
With respect you are only suggesting what pnb has already done he has listend to us asked questions on are behalf at council and only to find that no one will help.
csc if you truely want to help then get rid of the majority of WCF members that always swing the vote in favour of what the WCF, FTA want.
csc tell me how many WCF men sit on council taking into account you are on of them and how many council members are in total.
That will start things rolling as a dont need that private e.mail address.
I'm happy to stand my corner the question is csc will you stand with me.

Regards,

E.W.

csc
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Postby csc » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:56 pm

how can i stand with you if i do not know what you want
firstly you say peter has asked questions most certainly but without structure or purpose
now before you or peter jump down my throat by that statement i would like to point out that we all have to work together and although we may not agree with certain points we have to respect OTHERS views
in order to put alternative views forward
you must be prepared to do that officially and canvas support with due respect to peter he has not done this and has been told at meetings how to move things forward
regarding the WCF yes i am one and yes there are to many on various bodies same old! same old! we all know this and yes everyone in the WCF thinks that farriery smells of roses
however i have no intention of banging my head against a brick wall and if you want change YOU WILL HAVE TO WORK WITH OTHERS and part of this is finding others views and understanding you may not be right all the time
I AM HAPPY TO STAND MY CORNERFOR THE MAJORITY OF THE WORKING CRAFT so the question is EW is your corner the majority view or the individual

PNB
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Postby PNB » Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:55 pm

CSC,

The views I state are the views of the several dozen farriers who talk farriery and farriery politics to me, many of them several times a month.

As you well know the WCF have numerical majority control over council and appoint the members of the National Farriery Training Agency. The very agency who have "Carte Blanch" to despose of COUNCIL funds with out referance to full council!! Many issues appear to be pre debate by the WCF, who then seemingly instruct its officers of the desired council out comes. We are there only there to sanitise with no materal input and give an appearence of consultation and craft involvement!! Stuart its a load of Bull/sh as you well know and have said many times before!!

A question, why would mature registered farriers even consider talking to this CARTEL through you or me?? I wouldn't myself, Just like my brother, I've had it mate, as there seems no point in trying to shovel water up hill.

Our one big hope is that the Thames Valley Police will look at their crime complaints and will conduct an audut of non investigated crimes on their books shortly, then may be a judge will intervene!!

PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:56 am

peter i totally agree with your last comments but the point i am trying to make is if we can get these groups together with a wide aspect of different view points that can work together then you may have a alternative otherwise nothing will change all you will end up with is FROM ONE DICTATOR TO ANOTHER will be the outcome and you know as well as i do there are plenty of them waiting to take up that mantle

PNB
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Time to "WALK AWAY" from this current establishmen

Postby PNB » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:52 pm

BEYOND REDEMPTION!!

CSC,

After the way "The Central Cores" of farriery disregard the thoughts and feelings of our working craftsmen, as well as those elected to represent the working farrier's viewpoints, I STRONGLY FEEL WE SHOULD "LET THE CENTRAL CORE BURN" in the other place!!

It seems the training establishment are or shortly will be destitute of both cash and craft support, to say nothing of the deficency of the central cores' understanding or any real regard for what is actually needed for farriery commerce or is undertaken in our work place!!

Simply, I feel we or our craftsmen don't need to do anything, implosion is happening by its self/on its OWN!! by the natural progression of poor overarching management stratogy, especially in the light of the current financial constraint.

PNB.

PNB
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No place to hide!!

Postby PNB » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:06 am

CSC,

Your comment, "you must be prepared to do that officially and canvas support with due respect to peter he has not done this and has been told at meetings how to move things forward".

Stuart, I am not a livery member or a "CRAFT" committee member of the farriers company, the chance to debate and canvas within or with them, the Majority membership of FRC is then slight. As you say above and our last chairman demonstrated so well, the interested elected working craft FRC members definative input is only PERMITTED by the consent of the FRC livery appointees, who seem to only allow pre-debated issue with designed outcomes a proper consideration. If out come does not seem to be proceeding down the desired path, then [PNB], is " TOLD TO MOVE FORWARDS AT MEETINGS, [the how??] is not a fact it is to move things forward" no how to!!. Stuart its a statement, not a how, it even happened at the LANTRA / ATF conferance, when Mrs Smith under questioning put herself in a corner over barefooters, leaving herself on the ropes!! Every one saw this, so do you feel the ATF's are stupid?? what they have said since demonstrates the point was not missed by them!!

The fact is debate and canvassing takes place about 3 weeks prior to FRC seemingly at the company "CRAFT COMMITTEE", and before any agendas are circulated to the council members non craft committee included elected serving members on FRC. As a livery member you must know that!!

FRC, from my view point after craft committee becomes a closed shop!! I repeat a heap of steaming manure. [Non company members elected to council there may be only one possibly two], are there to give the appearance of craft involvement, that is unless they are part of or influenced by the livery companies "Central Core".

Contrived debate and outcomes ain't truely democratic or worth a carrot, as so well demonstrated by this present government bankrupying of the UK by ingnoring its banking policy, whils't concertrating on a cover up for obscene amounts of personal expenses, is that a good example of "self service" or not".

PNB.

Chris Linssner
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Postby Chris Linssner » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:40 pm

Stuart
I feel I must pick you up on a small point.
You say that every farrier you meet feels that CPD is unsupportable.
Do you think this may be because farriers may find it hard to speak against your views? You are a big fella with strong views and can be a bit intimidating at times. I myself have never found the negativity that you have.
When I came to your forge to your open morning you put the vote around for a show of hands for those farriers supporting CPD. Needless to say only mine went up.
What you should have said is how many farriers support further education (for farriers), which is what CPD is. I think you would have got a much different show of hands.
A lot of time has been spent setting up the system and it works quite well. Untill a better type of self monitoring system becomes available I feel it should be supported.
Why you ask, should you give it support? Because it is proving successfull in the very fact that there is now a whole myriad of day courses being put on all over the country for farriers further education. Some free and some at a price. Its a personel choice and depends on how you value your own education and what you are willing or not to pay for it.
I must also point out that NAFBAE has representation on just about every farriery commitee. Something I feel that younger viewers to this forum may have no idea about.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:13 pm

Chris,

Is CPD taking place due to the steering group or in spite of it. The feelings at TAC and FRC was is was happening totally independently of the CPD steering group!!

However, the impetus the debate and controversey over CPD possibly being made compulsory has definatly bought interest up to the levels of RDC, efforts of the 90's at Salisbury, Plumpton, Stoneleigh, Newmarket and Harrowgate as you rightly observe. That has to be a good thing and something you have been suggesting should happen for a long time.

The reason, maybe is that the lads are so aware that CPD maybe MADE COMPULSORY WITH MASSIVE CENERAL ADMINISTRATION COSTs, they feel a need exists to show that the craft is more than capable of training themselves in house, at almost a zero cost!!

The steering group and its founding bodies WCF, NAFB&AE and FRC are the ones losing out as as things stand, with "SELF TRAINING" little chance exist of drawing down any levy.

PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:32 am

Chris thanks for your comment i also believe cpd is good its the points we are talking about and not cpd in general and it was the points system that was voted on
only two supported it ,and in discussions latter i got the feeling speaking to both of you that you would rather sit on the fence knowing that the points system costs
there will always be courses and there great i write about them in the forge magazine don't forget
regarding your comment your a big fella well there were, and are allot bigger than i and some were there
yes i am strong with my views ,i am supposed to put the views of the craft forward but Chris do i or not speak to farriers for there opinions and i would like to think my strong views are those of the majority of working farriers please correct me if you feel i am being misled
peter sorry mate but your comment was well over my head but if you feel its so useless being on frc why not resign

PNB
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Postby PNB » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:52 am

CSC, or anybody,

What bits don't you understand?? I can expand any or of my comment.

PNB.

CSC, Ps, Your comment, "If you feel its so useless being on frc why not resign", I suppose that would make things easier for the establishment!!

We are both up for re-election very shortly, I am not going to SHIRK the elected responsibilty I HAVE UNDERTAKEN.

I am dedicated to try to reform this morass as I was elected to do. My feeling is the decay runs that deep and the craft are politically down trodden, their thoughts and feelings so ignored, this task without concerted effort by all, will not suceed!!

PNB.

Chris Linssner
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Postby Chris Linssner » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:17 pm

Stuart
I do not sit on the fence regarding CPD and its point system but until some better form of self monitoring system comes along then that is the system I shall support.
I was talking a bit tongue in cheek when I suggested that others viewpoints may be persuaded by your stature but you do seem to meet an awful lot of farriers against the points system. I have not met as many farriers against CPD as you have.

Peter
I feel the discission about CPD has brought it to the fore front of many farriers thoughts and I would hope this has help to spark what seems to be a re-newed vigour for further education. Long may it last.

PNB
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The wheel just keeps turning.

Postby PNB » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:04 pm

Chris,

CPD, I am wondering is it history repeating itself?? 15 or 20 years ago was simply when the last generation of working farriers in the system crossed the theory devide.

One generation ago it was, when you and I and at least 70 others to my knowledge crossed the line and decided they needed to know the few extra and precious bits about farriery and farriery science. We sought out knowledge and education ourselves under the C J Smith mentorship, it was then when very strong lifelong bonds were formed between fellow craftesmen.

Hopefully our messages have been passed on by our peers through their trainees. What is the real sickener is some perverted organisation saw a revenue oppertunity to place buns on administrative seats and made it both socially and economically unviable for my peers to employ and train on a one man one apprentice basis.

Their time is neigh no doubt!!

Enough, trust you are well buddy.

PNB.

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:46 pm

Chris,
You say a lot of time and has been spent setting up the system and it works quite well.


Now chris the system you are talking about is the one that only council members etc reely know about and secondly before that very system was in place farriers all over the uk were running courses free of charge.
That means we beet you at your own game. cpd is a fantastic thing and hundreds enjoy it but there are those startin out in life that have a home have young family and working six days a week to pay for it and sunday is the only day left to spend with the family.
I surrgest you keep your own record because the only time some you will need it is when at a disapilary as you can tell them how much cpd you have undertaken why let them know before you get there.
The eu laws state you must not stop a person or interfere with his work which may cause him her loss of earnings.
Before you jump on me im in favour of cpd but not in the format that it might end up being deliverd with some fat cat man that is no longer on the tools, hundreds of farriers dont want that chis so for once could someone at FRC / WCF / FTA / NAFB&AE PLEASE LISTEN TO WHAT IS GOING ON OUT THERE GET WITH IT.

Regards,

E.W.

csc
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Postby csc » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:12 am

CHRIS CPD is fantastic i have not met a farrier that is against it either
OK NOW WE HAVE AGREED ON THAT POINT!!!!
lets look at the facts
ITS POINTS that's the issue
in excess of £17,000 IS WHAT IT HAS COST TO MONITOR
there is £13,000 left in the kitty so to speak

why do we need points? for cove funding ?not anymore
to collect data on who is doing cpd .ok that's a argument for points
any views

csc
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Postby csc » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:28 am

at the cpd tripartite group yesterday it was debated that cpd become compulsory this was rejected but i will leave you to guess who was behind that
it was reported that a large number of farriers returned there cpd card and 5% of that number were doing it on the Internet i will suply that data when confirmed
i can assure you all that the group were actively out to promote cpd and peter there was no hidden agenda all that they want to do is promote cpd for the benefit of our craft .and i belive are doing a great job to promote farriery to the public

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:11 pm

PNB/CSC,
ON the matter of CPD, i have today found out from a ATF that it looks like LSC has gone tits up as the goverment has suspended it's funding, i take that as meaning it's possible there will be none or little fundind avaible to future apprentices or will this burden be passed on to ATF's.
I would like an honest answer of you both as you represent us working farriers.

Regards,

E.W.

PNB
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Update from coservatios with the Training Director FRC.

Postby PNB » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:34 pm

EW,

If you are to believe the british news mediums, BBC radio as well as the tabloid press, LSC is effectively insolvent.

To support this at the end of December 2009 the grant aid for 19 apprentices signed up in July 2009 had not be agreed by LSC or paid!!

As a consequence of a phone conversation, I spoke with Director of Training FRC, he confimed the above statement. He said during the period of non payment, consideration has been given to dispose of the NVQ matrix, adopt a stratogy of "E Learning", adopting the Know Foot Know Horse trainig model, and further, approaches had been made to all the July intake, 90% had agreed in principle to stand a £13.5 levy themselves personall for their apprenticships. That's the grim news but demonstrates a contingency audit has been undertaken and considered!! Something which must be warmly applauded.

"THE GOOD NEWS!!" on returning to the office after the chrismas holiday [good old SANTA], LSC agreed and paid the FULL GRANT for all 19 to 25 year old apprentices, which includes the January 2010 group. Post 25's?? FTA has yet to make out a special case out for them.

How?? the FTA have done this I cannot guess, but when you consider the stringent withdrawal of funding the press report, what was it £800m ??from the higher/further education and university budgets, it would seem someone was in a position to pull the right strings for FRC claim.

I hope the contingency planning has been consolidated, as I guss it will be needed some when in the not to distant future!!

It seems the Dip WCF results may well have again been disappointing, any details anyone??

PNB.

PNB
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MOre Fluff.

Postby PNB » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:57 pm

Stuart,

Your quote,"in excess of £17,000 IS WHAT IT HAS COST TO MONITOR
there is £13,000 left in the kitty so to speak".

As you well know the total of £30k you outline is a paper pledge no more no less!! £10k from each the WCF, FRC and NAFB&AE .

Lets look at those pledges a bit closer.
1, It is minuted at TAC WCF [or should be as it was debated] don't expect to part with any hard cash!!

2,It was established at TAC, NAFB&AE are to stand their £10k out of the now suggested to be illegal subsidy paid to them from the training budget for apprentice membership, and suject of a formal crime complaint.

3, FRC cannot under statute pay monies to anyone for training if the recipients have reached a level to qualify for REGISTRATION. CPD is a post graduate qualification!!

The official line at FRC was, yes FRC can if it is as a requirement for ATF status, [maybe some more feathers] but isn't that a differant issue??

Stuart, don't try your old trick again to marginalise all input from me by saying you can't understand what I am talking about. I suggestb you just phone some one at Sefton House, as I have to!!

PNB

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:54 pm

Pnb,
Thanks for that a clear straight foward answer all thats needed now is for csc to enlighten us with his version and lets hope he's not been given a pre WCF brief and give us the same all bull.

Regards,

E.W.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:54 am

Chris,

Your quote, "What you should have said is how many farriers support further education (for farriers), which is what CPD is."

It was discussed at TAC supported by the present Chair of TAC [KW] and generally approved, that the initials TAC are so inflamatory to farriers following the two post outs from Sefton House about it becoming compulsory, that the name CPD should be changed to "Post Graduate Studies"!!

Further it was approved at FRC resulting from a pesentatiuon from its then Chair [SJC], that if a sufficent level of Post Graduate Studies was achieved and proven, the Term "Master Farrier" would be awarded to that farrier, to acknowledge his hard work and post graduate interest/efforts towards I suppose excellence in any specific area related to horse shoeing. I suppose this to be a WCF jesture rather than a commercial move, well lets hope so. It would be something I could strongly support!!

Will these two things happen happen?? What a nice jesture that would be!!Call me an old sceptic however!!

PNB.

PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:39 am

thanks guys for avoiding the question i asked
peter i have spoken to Seton house and there is funding and it is done on a yearly basis
the government are behind apprenticeships
the £30,000 pledge will run out next march
EW i have my own opinion and certainly not up the wcf arse
the term master farrier as i understand will go to qualifications above the dip peter you seem to twist everything and destroy good intentions but i havnt seen you come up with any answers just destruction

PNB
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Don't be so Silly. Just another way to put me down!!

Postby PNB » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:52 pm

Idea,s all subject of formal reports to FRC!!

CSC.

!,Outline of Farriery CPD, mine. In 1996 I think it was, at the 1st ATF conferance presentation anyway, worked with B.A. Kavanagh. The current chair of NFTAB posted it as his original idea some ten years later!! I object to Miss Clayton the then chair of FRC who supported me by digging out the CPD file!!

2, The definition, Post Graduate Studies mine. 2008.

3, A Formal Extension to Dip WCF, AWCF & FWCF out lining specialist areas of expertise. Mine 2008. [ie Dip WCF Competition, /Dip WCF Remedial, Training/ Polo /Racing etc!!]

4, E/based practical, E/Theory and DVD education. Mine 2006. Started self production in 1993 at Salisbury. Chris and I shared media at the Salisbury pre AWCF dry run. Ask him!! Way before POWER POINT and M/Soft.

5, I can outline as many of my ideas as you wish.

The fact is, I am excluded by the central core it seems from being involved with any formation committees. Why?? You are a liveryman you tell me.

PNB.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:56 pm

CSC,

Sorry Stuart, I seem to have missed your question, had a quick scan through this thread there wasn't an obvious question for me. Please out line the question AGAIN!!

PNB.

PNB
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"Many Brains Switch The Light On".

Postby PNB » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:41 am

EW,

You are right, and your suggestion both answers Stuarts inquiry, [I didn't see it as a direct question], and disipates any further education administration cost, without endangering government funding, where Stuart implies above, there is none anyway!! The CPD group exists only to; his quote:- "peter there was no hidden agenda all that they want to do is promote cpd for the benefit of our craft ".

All it needs is for FRC to supply a booklet which includes the existing ackowledgement of renewal of registration, something already posted out annually by Sefton House.

A double sided A4 size card/sheet to contain an area to record any ongoing Post Graduate Studies. So where is the need for a central record to be kept, if a record is needed for an insurance claim, further certification purposes [ie, WCF qualification extension], or a disiplinary reason, at that stage it could be produced.

EW, Your idea is a simple solution to "a CPD ideal to far", and an idea that would need no formal administrative back up, to boot at a zero cost, with no Big Brotherly THREATS!!

Stuart, your committee could use the points system if the CPD group can see no further than that or they need in for any specific incidence [to mark homework], to collate the record, it would be of no nconsequence in the big picture. I feel it would be just as easy to record this in LONG HAND or on a DVD which currently happens, that is if the student so wishes so to mark up his CV. A qualification extension as suggest by SJC would without doubt stimulate some to keep the record up to date, a real post graduate study asset.

PNB.

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:08 pm

csc,
I think thats your question dealt with.
NFTA, yet a new name for us to deal with, they need not record CPD POINTS and save a fortune in admin costs futher more there is a conflict of interest here if you were called before a disaplinary commette as they should not no how much CPD you have undertaken thats private and a part of your defence, do you think it correct that FRC hold that information on you i for one dont.

csc,
Why do you try and discredit pnb most of the time i know he can be a bull in the china shop but he has FARRIERS INTEREST AT HEART can you say the same hes done a hell of a lot for farriery and is held in high regard maybe not at FRC/WCF but who cares when did they do anything for the working craft.
Dont rush to answer that last one it may take you some time to dig something up.

Regards,

E.W

csc
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Postby csc » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:05 am

thanks for your views ew firstly one persons view does not credit a answer it must be the views of many and a majority i am not trying to discredit anyone i am only interested in fact not FICTION
i do believe peter has farriers interest at heart as you stated however i do not agree with him or anyone else cart blanch

PNB
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Postby PNB » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:28 pm

Stuart,

I feel that response to be a bit rude, one costituent is as entitled to a view and consideration as several or even all, are. To make this point remember we working farriers have a one man one vote system of election to FRC and TAC.

May be you are at it again trying to discredit EW's very informed, intelegent and interested inputs/views, he is one of your fellow craftesmen, to dismiss him with a singe sentance. His view point that if adopted a year and a half ago would have on paper saved NAFB&AE, WCF and FRC £10k each.

Exclusionisn has effectively wasted £30K, some of it from the cash strapped training budget. Come to think of it wouldn't that same amount, without the BALL & CHAIN of NVQs have paid for some 20 aqpprentices college fees
[10x£2.2K] for a base 12 weeks college attendence each apprentice and still leaving £8000 for admin, a part time wage for a junior secretary!!
What a waste of funding NVQs seem to be!

Where is NAFB&AE on this?? They proudly flag up they are " THE VOICE OF THE WORKING FARRIER", [see front cover of the last FORGE 2010]. It seems I have read that phrase before, see the home page of this web site.

PNB.

Chris Linssner
Posts: 207
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Postby Chris Linssner » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:08 pm

Peter
The money you talk of within the NFTA would not have even existed without the "Ball and chain" of NVQ's.
I have told you before NVQ's are not some farrier phenomenon. They are the european based training syllabus for further education.
If you want government funding then you have to dance their tune. Like it or not.
Where the hell else do you get funding from to support our apprentice industry? Is there any other way of securing funding without it coming from or through a government body? Can you suggest any form of funding.
I can tell you where NAFBAE was one weekend. Running an exam preparation day for apprentices about to take the Dip. As reported in Forge Magazine so I will not bore you with the details except to say that 92% passed the practical and a whopping 100% passed the written paper after having a day of hard work to prepare with real examiners all giving their time for free.
NAFBAE are there for the working farrier and for the farriers of tommorrow.

And EW, yes you do need to collect some form of proof of having done CPD. Either by points or any other way. My preference would be to be collected by the hour participated.
Heaven help the farrier called before a barrister and find himself on the wrong side of some dudicious questioning regarding just how much further education he had done and where was the proof. And how long is it before the Insurance Companies decide that ,"No, Mr EW we cannot insure you without proof of having participated in CPD and no a self filled in form will not do!"
I am not being facisious here I am serious. We have to be seen to be self regulating. We do not want compulsary CPD but we do need to be seen participating. If that meens that my points are on a database somwhere then so be it.

Chris Linssner
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Postby Chris Linssner » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:14 pm

Peter
Just had a look at the front of your website.
It says "The voice of the Farrier".
No mention of work there.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:50 pm

Chris,

Sorry you a right "The voice of the farrier" is not even close!! not for your comfort any way!!

Yes, the craft said they didn't want NVQs but we got them. I don't know about the costings, perhaps you could work the out?? But without the NVQ sylubis that you quite correctly state is needed to draw down funding, would it not seem the college attendence could be reduced to its previous to NVQ levels?? and would/could the Dip WCF pass rate levels match those of pre NVQ and revert back to the consistant 95% then achieved?? I suggest it could even may well do. The question with an historical over view, what evidence do you have to show it would not??

My suggestions being, to put the apprentices through 12 weeks at college, I guess it would cost about £2.2k and without the NVQ record keeping inflicted on the college staff by the demands of record keeping of NVQ, would more time would be available for the tutors to teach rather than create usless heaps of paper, do we dramatically disagree here?? [Anyone's views who is outside the NVQ assessment/verification system please comment, your comments are needed to move us out of any shaddows ]. pnbaker@tiscali.co.uk , I will post your comments if you request!!

The official arguement being, the useless heaps of paper are needed as a transportable medium to allow employers to confirm their qualifications. So tell me what employees?? are not almost all farriers self employed??

I hear your arguement, where is the £2.2k going to come from?? I suggest from the same source as the one established above by NFTA, when their July intake demonstrated a willingness to stump up £13.5 each!!

So then Chris, are you defending the indefencible?? I don't know I feel I am simply putting forwards a more viable, less intrusive, more cost efficent and an educationally benificial set of observation in what I feel could be a better way of providing competent future exam proven "Working Farriers", and providing the likes of yourself with a Platform "to voice" your farrier's thoughts.

PNB.

PNB
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The Old Official line destorts history, we were there!!

Postby PNB » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:30 am

Chris,

Sorry I missed one point, the "Central Core, Body Politic" farriery opted us into NVQ, the Craft said "NO Thanks", effectively saying "We do not want another system of cenrtal control to retard the training of our youth and interfere with the employers needs and requirements for their trainee /employees, For apprentices not to get a real overview of what is needed to qualify to register as a farrier and become a master craftesman looking after the animals welfare!! Mate its an artform!! The then central core, [the same key back room central core that still oversee] as Stuart says THe Dictatuors] ingnored the grass root training requests/requirements, the needs of our horses and the basic two millenium development of our street craft requirements, for a mess of pottage!!

I ask what for?? Thats not really a question as Brian Kavanaugh the then registrar told us at the begining of the process of "The Central Core's Intent" under a guise FRC banner was to effect the take over of farrier apprentice admininstration following that of the "Rural Development Commission".

He said it many times both at the first ATF conferance and at verious committies and at council's I was on or attended. "There is £400k available for apprentice training, we [FRC] would be mad not to take it!!

My point is please don't lose sight of the rabbit here.

PNB.

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:39 pm

Chris,
Your point made let me point something out to you in the first place if FRC had taken advice on the legality of collecting point or recording them they may well as never started.
FRC are not in a position thats because of there actions in the above to bring anyone before a disaplinary becacuse there is a conflict of interest if you find that hard to understand you best phone sefton house by now they will be pissed that iv'e clocked them and you made me point it out so every farrier in the country is in the know.

Regards,

E.W.

csc
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Location: berks

Postby csc » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:18 am

sorry ew sefton house were there before you at the tripartite meeting felicity heather pointed out that to make cpd compulsory would be illegal Chris our point system is expensive and unnecessary it could be collated by the suppliers at no cost to us ,
regarding farriers interest in the card point system only 6 returned them however we are informed that 5% are doing it on the e mail that's around 12/13 cost so far £17000 that's about £5666 of nafbaes money

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:42 pm

Chris,

I'm not on any committe to do with farriery yet i can see the wood for the trees, simply a bunsh of fools sat on committe being led by there the nose.
You side with education and thats fair enough but there again you would as your an assesor and derive some income from doing so, thats why i dont think you see both side of the coin only the side that puts money in your pocket, if i could ghange on thing within FRC and all the sub committest hat exist i'd get rid of the bloody lot of you and find people that have interest in farriery put inyour place so at the very least people like my be heard.

Regards,

E.W.

PNB
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Changes at the top!!

Postby PNB » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:13 am

Stuart,

So, Mrs Heather patently was against a CPD points system, you are patently against the idea, thank you both for listening to the craft!!

I will have a stab that the chair of the FTAB was in favour well thats what I hear, I am further led to believe WCF are strongly in favour of a CPD and a central recording and administration system, otherwise would a CPD steering group have even happened jn the first place?? If I understand correctly being a craft elected member on Council the points system and the CPD steering group wouldn't now exist if this wasn't the case. Am I correct??

Who else if it was not the WCF craft committee who got the CPD steering group and the dam points recording out come formed in the first place?? to boot the/an illegal points system established.

Lets have a look at the legal Liabilities of what has happened here.

1, The understanding one that is outlined above, which is drawn from data extracted at FRC or TAC debates, from information within FRC's own Rules and Procedures and Implications within of our Farriers Registration Act! is FRC monies cannot lawfully be used for CPD purposes as CPD takes place post registration!!

2, We now understand FTA are contracted by your steering group to do its admin and recieve tripartite money for those sevices it provides.

Maybe it is as well to outline problems within the tripartite sources.

NFTA is wholely owned by FRC. FRC have pledged £10k of the £30k!! needeed. So who's actual CASH is being paid to NFTA for that administration purpose. Isn't it FRC's monies?? so is that then unlawful??

Another part of the answer could be and it has been suggested above, that NAFB&AE are stumping up £10k, money supposidly drawn from an FRC apprentice membership payment subsidy, a subsidy giving all apprentices NAFB&AE membership, [NAFB&AE is one of the Council's Statutory Appointing Bodies"] a membership subsidy to underwrite the NAFB&AE £10k share of the CPD admin costs. Can FRC at law do that!! Further DO NOT "CONFLICTS of INTERESTS" within council outcomes dovetail in here some where.

3, We were at one stage further told the WCF would be providing their £10k by services in kind not cash!!

So who is going to STAND THE BILL ??

4, The craft don't seem to want a FORMAL CPD system as the "Casual Post Graduate System= that has been in place since the 80's and reignited in the 90's by RDC, to my personal knowledge is demonstrated now to currently is working well!

The evedence is proven that the fact Post Graduate Study and Exam Certification is happenid on mass, yet administration is not being supported as only a very few are sending in their CPD registration forms to "Big Brother". A dead rat lies here maybe!! We were/are told more than half the craft were allotted points for the year 2008, How /why such a wind change in 2009?? Has a move been undertaken to Stimulate and Distort a sucessful appearance??

5, On a final note we were told in a letter that CPD was to made OBLIGATORY, something at that time was denied and bit later vigerously denied, saying a draft letter had been circulated in error. However a later communication still outlined obligatory as a possibility again vigourously denied. Yet at last CPD steering group we hear again a vote was
taken about compulsory CPD.

Is there a lot more??

I echo a demand made by a working Farrier two days ago!!, one directed at the CENTRAL CORE BODY POITIC farriery. "It is time for sackings or for resignations".

PNB.

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:53 am

pnb,

Exetremely well put, we have a registra that seems more in tune with us working farriers than the other fools that stand before her, it's now common knowlege that ONLY ONE MAN DEMANDED COMPULORY CPD but did not get his way it's worth pointing out thats only thanks to FELICITY HEATHER WHO IS BLESSED WITH BRAINS SOMETHING THE OTHERS ARE SHORT ON.

The sad part in all this wasted monies or miss appropriation of funding that goes on under the noses of these so called committee members is a sad reflection on them, should they feel responsible for there actions ????????? WELL AS A MEMBER OT THE WORKING CRAFT I HOLD THEM RESPONSIBLE.

Regards,

E.W.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:04 pm

It is about time that some of you went to a few of these seminars to see how many farriers don't follow your views. CPDs or not, they all are crying out for more knowledge.

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:14 pm

Correct john,
I already have more than 35cpd points for last year, hundreds attend cpd and love it they choose to attend at there choice john not forced to attend something which is made compulsory so one man can front it and fill his pockets john.

Regards,

E.W.

john ford
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Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Postby john ford » Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:23 pm

Am I missing something, who said CPDs were compulsory. And there are plenty of free ones aroud

Italian stallion
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:40 pm

Postby Italian stallion » Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:26 pm

Yes John you are missing something if you read previous posts regarding cpd you would be in the loop rather than outside it looking like a lemon.


Regards,


E.W.


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