Are Frc for purpose

this forum is mainly for farriers - all are welcome but don't enter if you are easily offended!

Moderator: admin

Italian stallion
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:40 pm

Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:49 pm

If you consider that FRC are responsible for training, they alone installed the NFTA and what a mess it's made of training.

ATF 's are responsible for any and all actions of there apprentice while in the work place, well I feel the FRC should be held accountable for there mess and the money wasting machine NFTA.

Regards,
E.W.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:53 pm

EW,

Fit for purpose??

From my observations over the 20 years I served on TAC's and FRC fit for purpose is an overstatement, this is supported by my observations at Council and the goings on yesterday!!

From where I sat FRC [Council] has no purpose other than to SANITIZE decisions made by the WCF in another place at recent other time.

As i said earlier Farrier Registration as I see it was instigated to EMPOWER WCF, and to regain them control over the similarly named "Farriery CRAFT", Our Craft!! The whole way it has been worked up since 1975 is perverse or as CSC would say is CORRUPT. The sooner government see this and take steps to deregulate Farriery and attempt to regain part of the Tens of Millions of Pounds that seemingly have been SQUANDERED [Wolf Report], the better.

PNB.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc Fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:45 pm

All,

Ofsted flagged up the subjective and punitive, unexplainable and unfair usage of BACK BLOCKING within the farriery apprenticeship, as something that needs urgent remedy!! From where I sit I think it is a very fair comment upon the college back blocking protocols, and a fair comment towards its punitive nature and what could even be a fund raising exercise.[Thankyou Cedric for flagging that up]. Excess back blocking just has to be wrong.

The Chair of FRC has to be made aware of the possibility that the use of back blocking maybe not be at all what it seems, Ofsted don't think it is anyway.

The Farriery Council at FRC 27/6/13 heard/maintained , that too many trainees, young employees, apprentices [numerically] are entering the TRAINING SYSTEM, [only 50 - 60 each year are needed] yet [ the chair fixated on the number 72]. As to many are entering the system, it then would be only to easy to accept back blocking could be used at the farrier schools to filter out numerical quantities of lads from progressing forwards towards their qualification at a constant rate to make excessive numbers appear better on paper. If controls were undertaken like this, all it could only be an interim measure anyway to retard numbers at best, as ultimately young employees have to a greater degree passed out to qualify [eventually], with the Back Blockers filling college seats keeping new entry numbers down, yet still allowing the colleges and the body politic to draw associated funding.

What is even more sad if not perverse back blocking is I understand recorded within the Student Farriers Portfolio, as a permenant written record of "a hickup" and surely does not enhance future employment opportunity, some portfolio's containing such comment/records get binned post qualification due to adverse comments [as EW nominates above]. Please note any retained record attended by a derogatory Assessor, Verifier Comment is a permanent written comment for all to see upon request!! That has to be a PERVERSE effect in the Extreme.


Monies, "Cedric", flags up above the massive costs to the system and the trainee of back blocking and re examination, I understand from FRC 27/06/13 some failures are effected by outside of the craft [non farrier] examining Sub Contractors. This has to be suspicious due to the substantial extra monies it brings with it by way of additional fees!! A suspicion? who knows, has the question been asked and the audit been done ??

I turn now to the comment of the Chair FRC on both 26th & 27th /06/13, that he wants to see as the very best possible farrier training, [comment:- a very commendable comment]. Yet to go on by saying the best education, should lead the achievement of Higher Exam Grades and Honour Passes from Farrier Students. I feel this demonstrates a dramatic lack of comprehension on his behalf when it is his Appointing Body [WCF] that have total control over grades here, as they that set the respective pass marks that achieve top grades and honours passes. Achievement marks to get Higher Grades are flexible and definatly not set in anything else than awarding body stone.

Anything further.

PNB.

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:59 am

I am fully aware that most of us are not truly happy with the situation of training in farriery at the moment, and many of us have our own agendas to fix it. Unfortunately due to government intervention OFSTED and SFA are now calling the shots, and will only accept a certain road and format for the farriery training to go down. The FRC, WCF, BFBA, hands are tied. Whilst all of these parties are doing their utmost for the trades interest, funding will only commence providing all the rules laid down by OFSTEAD and SFA are met. Everything has been rushed through for fear of funding being delayed further, which could lead to the closing of colleges, and a complete breakdown of the training program in the UK.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc Fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:31 pm

John,

Funding is only a small part of the big picture. Poor teaching principle, institutional bullying, over stringent entrance criteria and sudden deaths are just other parts of it!!. Seemingly new legislation is developing and I understand will emerge onto the Statute Book soon. In the mean time it is probably best for our craft not to hold its breath!!

Your Quote:- "Further delay"?? presently is as it was forecast at FRC this will take two years to sort. The big question being HOW can the colleges sustain with no fresh students for another 30 odd months??

Any Ideas??

PNB.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc Fit for purposeStuart,

Postby PNB » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:18 pm

Stuart,

Is this the done deal Document you are speaking about??

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: The Master of the Worshipful Company of Farriers
The Chairman Farriers Registration Council
The President of the British Farriers and Blacksmiths Association (formerly NAFBAE)

27th June 2013

Following the poor Ofsted report on the National Farrier Training Agency (NFTA), the Skills Funding Agency (SFA) stopped funding for all new apprenticeships.

With the Minister expressing concerns over how quickly NFTA could be put back on the road, SFA endorsed a new model, which proposed the colleges taking over as providers of training, drawing funding direct from SFA.

The colleges explained their position at a Future of Farriery Training meeting at Stoneleigh on Friday 21 June, where Mike Bell, the Director of Strategic Intervention at SFA, advised the meeting that the way forward was in line with current government thinking on apprenticeships.

This new model will fundamentally retain the same sort of structure of a combination of both college training and experience in the workplace, but the colleges will be fully involved in approving and have a direct agreement with both the farriers who are training apprentices and also with those carrying out assessments in the workplace, all without the involvement of a separate training agency.

As required by the Farriers Registration Act, the Farriers Registration Council (FRC) will accredit training and monitor the delivery of training by colleges, with the power to strike off a college which was failing to deliver good quality apprentices for the Diploma. The FRC will remain in full control of the training system through these powers while the Diploma – with the standards set by the Worshipful Company of Farriers (WCF) - will remain the key pathway through to becoming a farrier.

To fund the accreditation and monitoring service the colleges have agreed to provide a levy to the FRC.

The new direction for farriery training was endorsed by the FRC at a full Council Meeting on Thursday 27 June.

With the Council decision made today, much must now be done to bring the new training system into action so that apprentices are provided with a safe learning environment and an effective and enjoyable training system. Colonel Stephen Boyd will head up a small team within the FRC. He will work in conjunction with the WCF, BFBA, the colleges, and the SFA.

The timescale has yet to be finalized but the move of existing training is expected to take place during autumn 2013, with the first intake of new apprentices starting in early 2014. The NFTA will continue to exist to run existing apprenticeships until the handover to colleges takes place, which will be sooner rather than later.

The scale of the change is well recognised and inevitably there will be many questions which cannot be answered immediately. We will keep you informed as decisions are made and it is intended to run a formal briefing session at the Farrier Focus day at Stoneleigh during the last weekend in September.

PNB.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc for For purpose

Postby PNB » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:31 am

Stuart,

The model laid out above may well work, I am mindful however of Cedric's caution as to if the Colleges can manage to cover in field: Training, Assessment and Verifications.

With BHEST coming out of the Matrix, its back now to only one Awarding Body [WCF] and the Statutory Dip wcf being the registration standard. No mention of NVQ stage Exams!! that has to be good regarding the costs and for the Ofsted problems associated with backblocking !!

Then relative to each student being run his chosen college, I just wonder if the Colleges are prepared to share the resources and costs of an effective in field progress Assessment and Verifications system??

I suppose there is the option of engaging outside of farriery sub contractors to verify and assess which from my view point is/would be a huge weakness with the above plan, as assessment of the actual work done to the horse cannot be undertaken by non time experienced farriers .

It seems from what I hear FRC/WCF are going to use the power they have adopted in the above plan to reduce three farrier colleges down to two!! That may well un-complicate the the working together issue. I suppose its wait listen and see here now.

Stuart, what about Blue Lizzard, how is this progressing??

PNB.

Cedric
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:25 pm
Location: Lancashire.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Cedric » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:48 am

Every tit bit of information seems to raise another question.

Is the NVQ to be abandoned - what about past Government insistence that it was required to qualify for funding?

Is it felt that these changes are bringing us any closer to having the 'grass roots' members of our profession being more involved and consulted in the future development of the craft? This has been a bone of contention for some time now. Our meager elected representation on Council appear to be regularly overwhelmed by the upper echelons of our governing bodies.

There is even evidence of direct Government involvement as stated in the "Joint Statement" last week ; "With the Minister expressing concerns over how quickly NFTA could be put back on the road SFA endorsed a new model, which proposed the colleges taking over as
providers of training, drawing funding direct from SFA".


PS. Have I missed something ? What is Blue Lizzard ?

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc Fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:53 pm

Cedric,

Huge deals are being made by the Cartel Farriery Training, that is without reference to the 2,400 craftsmen that actually shoe horses daily, specifically those not accompanied by an assistant/trainee/apprentice, that is without reference until after the deal has been by hand shake agreed in the highest places and seemingly sanctioned by Government Ministers!!.

It is as CSC pointed out to me last week, the men that have apprentcies [specifically more than one youngster] tend to do little else other than fit up shoes, the youngsters foot dress, to nail and finish. Some of these same men get invites to some of the consultation processes.

We that still do the job ourselves don't have a say in the BOLLITICS.

EW's heading are FRC then Fit for Purpose, is presently highly releivant, what happened on the 27th June 13 demonstrates to me FRC has no PURPOSE, let alone not BEING FIT FOR PURPOSE. Who/What give the TRIPARTITE Cartel Group the Authority to make such dramatic decisions on Working Farriers Behalves??

We the other 2,400 men who pay for the Farriers Register to be maintained really need to consider the WORTH of future Registration. The fact is the door is open for us to walk through if and when we choose!!.

Proof:- Please note the signatures at the top of the Press Report posted earlier today, NFBA, [NAFB&AE], WCF, FRC. I ask drawing from the signatures, who then consists the Cartel Farriery??

Over to you Fordy!!

PNB.

Chris Linssner
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:25 pm

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:40 pm

I expect Fordy is the same as me, scratching his head and wondering what the hell you are on about.
I'm confused.

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:03 pm

Thank you Chris, Do you think all farriers should have two A levels at A grade in English and reading before they attend one single farriery lesson. Because I am finding on a regular basis when writing on these boards that no matter how simple I explain something, some idiot turns it upside-down, and starts ranting on about something else, and in a way that nobody else can understand.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:35 pm

Chris, Fordy,

Simply there 2,400 Registration fee paying farriers who are excluded from vital decision making inputs that will effect the future of the whole farriery industry. These 2,400 are being conned by BAFB [NAFB&AE] [ who are supposed to look after their members interests] as well as by WCF and FRC that they [the 2,400] have a real voice!!

The truth is they don't get a look in, pre-decided decisions go through FRC without the Working Craftsmen getting the mildest of consideration as to what is being said.

The press release posted this morning proves the point it was on file at the FRC meeting prior to the matter being debated at FRC, when it was supposed to be the result of the FRC debate.

WCF, the core executive of FRC and BAFB produced this on file report prior to the FRC debate, and they were all party to a DECEPTION by being the signaturies of it!

PNB.

Hope that is clear enough!!

csc
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40 am
Location: berks

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:41 am

peter has a point how do you spend three hours debating, then come up with a letter to send to everyone, at the same meeting.
they must have been pretty sure council would accept there point, and to top it all no other views were really debated .
now having said that in the short term there seems to me that there was no other option, or if there was Mr Bridges and Mr Barnes decided it wasn't worth considering.
you see it had all been decided a few days before at stonleigh by a selected few

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:02 am

Stuart,

Thankyou. I will simplify it even further.

The Farriers that do the job in the Street [2,400 registration fee paying men] are prevented by contrived and senseless NFTA/FRC/WCF apprentice employment protocols and DO NOT GET A LOOK IN!! or seemingly even any consideration within the craft decision making processes.

PNB.

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:52 pm

I have had everything explained to me today. To put it in simple terms, those who are funding wouldn't accept a third party like NFTA. They would only agree to the main training provider receiving funds and administrating all aspects of training. This will now be the colleges, who will deal directly with the apprentice and ATF. Apart from that very little will change. Before we had a system run by NFTA where the teachers were not allowed to speak directly to an ATF, and we didn't have all parties singing from the same song sheet. So in the end those people providing the money, are not interested what the 2700 registered farriers want, or would like to see happen, because they have said you want the money and this is the way it is going to be, period.

Chris Linssner
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:25 pm

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:35 pm

Peter
I feel sad and dismayed at the tone of your writing and i ask any farriers following this that there is another world out there.
A world of responsible hard working people trying to do their best in what is a very difficult time for farriery training.
Your last post is typical. Nobody gets a look in you say. How many replied to our joint survey.I can tell you it was not very many. How many training farriers came to the training forum at the Focus event? How many will come to this years forum?
Dont you dare sit on your computer complaining that nobody gets a look in because from where I am sitting that conclusion is clear.
Either most training farriers do not give a monkies or they are incredibly happy with things.

Its fortunate that we started looking into training several years ago and managed to have all the relevant foundation conversations having taken place with all the necessary parties including the three colleges to find a way forward for our apprentices. We wanted to start with a clean sheet and see what types of apprenticeship would be available with gov funding and the options were not huge.
Now ofsted have played their hand and things have been forced upon us too soon but we are all trying to move forward in a positive way. The SSFA are incredibly clear on what they see as the only way forward and are happy with the present option. We need the funding and i do not think we can have an apprenticeship where only the richest can join.
In the long term having a year out from training may be a good breather for the trade as most complain of too few horses and too many farriers.

I know you will not understand the sentiment of what i am trying to convey. That is not your way but I dont care.
We will continue to support farriers and their apprentices. That is our way.

Chris Linssner

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:18 pm

Chris,

You are asking questions that you know about and we would love to know about.

Your Quote, "Your last post is typical. Nobody gets a look in you say.

Your Question #1 How many replied to our joint survey.I can tell you it was not very many.

Your Q #2 How many training farriers came to the training forum at the Focus event?

Your Q# 3 How many will come to this years forum?

Your Comment #1, Dont you dare sit on your computer complaining that nobody gets a look in because from where I am sitting that conclusion is clear. Chris and your Conclusion is ??

Your comment #2, Either most training farriers do not give a monkies or they are incredibly happy with things. And your conclusion is!!

Chris, you seem to be pretty much in touch with the 2,400 of us out here that don't have apprentices, so will you please send us the details of the JOINT survey results that you flag up, or tell us where the details can be viewed. I filed a survey form to the WCF, to their Assistant Registrar and it was the last I heard about it until now. So please tell us all about it !!

PNB.

csc
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40 am
Location: berks

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:40 am

Chris its great that for the last five or so years you have been looking at the options and representing farriers its a shame though you didn't tell anyone never mind consult anyone

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:05 pm

And what I find amazing Peter and Stuart, that I sit on no committees what-so-ever, and within six days I have found out everything that is going on, and how things are hopefully going to turn out. And how the hell did I do that, when at first I was like many of you filled with mistrust. and thinking I was being hoodwinked. I PICKED UP THE PHONE,

Italian stallion
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:40 pm

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:47 pm

How very true that maybe John.

Chris on the other hand has been at work for the last five years he would have us believe.

My question to chris is a simple one, how is it that his members no nothing about the last five year of these works talks that he professes to have been on going.

I don't think keeping member in the dark about farrier politics is a good thing.

Chris if you have time, I'm sure your members would like you to ask cliff Barnes about Harold coppers report (that's the one before the meeting) I'm sure you can fill in the blanks for us working farriers that find trusting people like you hard work.

Regards,

E.W.

Chris Linssner
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:25 pm

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:42 pm

There is no mystery Italian Stallion. The association has had dialogue with all necessary parties over the last three years to see what is available or possible within apprentice training. There aint no secret there and its been talked about.
Who has been kept in the dark?
We had a well documented training discussion at the focus day. This was then taken to the North of England. We sent out a survey form to get feedback from farriers on how they want training to continue. There will be another training discussion at this years focus day.

If you want to ask Cliff anything I am sure he will be willing to talk to you. His number is in the front of the forge magazine.

You talk about trust. My name is at the top. I dont know who you are.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:22 am

John, Your Quote,

"And what I find amazing Peter and Stuart, that I sit on no committees what-so-ever, and within six days I have found out everything that is going on, and how things are hopefully going to turn out. And how the hell did I do that, when at first I was like many of you filled with mistrust. and thinking I was being hoodwinked. I PICKED UP THE PHONE".

I seem to remember you were told to " Shut the F~~~~ up, its a done deal".[ see your above posting]. So please tell us all 2,400 of us what you "FOUND OUT", 2,400 of us still don't know. Please remember NFTA/FRC/3 x Colleges still have 3 +Ofsted's to pass before they can drawer any FUNDING!! or didn't you understand that!! Come to think of it as NFBA closed their FORUM down, so why not get them to Mass Email the CRAFT, Its Free.

PNB.

csc
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40 am
Location: berks

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:35 am

Chris at the focus day the discussion run by the WCF, I thought the farriers wanted private apprentiships and that the company were manovering for college based ones.

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:24 pm

Peter when someone says to Fordy Shut-the ***K-up he then finds other avenues to get the information, and why is that may you ask, it is because he is interested in farriery, and not as many of you seem to do on this board, trying to gain brownie points, and blaming everybody else

csc
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40 am
Location: berks

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:36 am

I agree fordy all of you shut the F*** UP bitching time time over :mrgreen:
posting.php?mode=reply&f=2&t=932#
LETS SEE SOMETHING POSITIVE

how do you see farriery training in the future!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!http://www.farriery.org.uk/forum/posting.php?mode=reply&f=2&t=932#

csc
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40 am
Location: berks

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:32 pm

LOST !! aint you, full of provqdo but no balls"!!!!"

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc/WCF Fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:53 am

Stuart,

Councillor Dyer said a council 27th June, his apprentices were less efficient when returning from collage. I often here " It takes a month to get them back to do the job as I need it"!!

The wire controlled satellites of the WCF, that is FRC and NFTA don't hear or reflect Street Farriers feelings. The training syllabus is out of touch with 2013 street practice. The WCF exclude any working craft real input, when they a forced by the likes of Ofsted, SFA to council craft opinion and others, any outcomes are seldom published and seldom seen. The colleges are so bogged down with box ticking and paper work they maintain there isn't time to teach!!

The system has failed Ofsted flagged that up. The remedy, "SIMPLE" speak to the men that shoe horses again, presently only those that have vested interests get a look in!! What is proposed following 27th June 13 with WCF maintaining control, seems to be more of the same!! Its the inflexible enforcement of one version of the registration act by WCF and its satellites that is the problem basically the training system is good and needs nothing more than rational democratic craft tweeking

PNB.

Cedric
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:25 pm
Location: Lancashire.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Cedric » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:19 am

Do those who are re-arranging our profession's training system have any concept whatsoever of public/client relations ? ( I refer to members of the craft).

I see from the Joint Statement that we are to be given a formal briefing at the Farriery Focus day at the end of September - they don't tell us that we have to pay to attend and places are limited ! Surely this is not the way to disseminate information to members of a craft that are being affected by these changes - all are being kept in limbo (apart from the ones already in the know).

From a personal level it appears to me that these changes have been in the pipeline for some time and that the OFSTED report (by chance or design !!! :idea: ) provided a convenient opportunity for implimentation that has been siezed upon with vigour.

Chris Linssner
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:25 pm

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:45 am

Cedric
As far as we are concerned, nothing was in the pipeline other than i have stated above.

The forum at the focus weekend is not a "formal briefing" as you state. it is open to farriers to get an update on what we will know so far and to have your say but dont come wasting time on what has gone before. Bring your positive thoughts on what we want for our apprentices. I do not know who will be there but hopefully representatives from all involved in training.

The forum is on sunday so there will not be a charge and the International Team Shoeing Competition will be on its last day.

Hope this helps you Cedric

Chris

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are FrcWCF fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:50 pm

Chris,

Your Quote :-" As far as we are concerned, nothing was in the pipeline other than i have stated above".

So what are you saying ?? The" 5 1/2" years or was it "3 1/2" you ["we"] have within the Executive been talking and arranging modifications of the training systems [as stated above by officers of BFBA] have amounted to ZERO. Suppose that's right really, when your President turned his back on the decision of the CRAFT at the last Forum Day by abandoning the last Forum support/approval of a PRIVATE TRAINING SYSTEM by voting for the WCF three college system at full FRC on 27th June 13.

Maybe you could ask at next executive, why your president did that and why other BFBA members on FRC allowed themselves to be WHIPPED in by the chair a WCF appointee to support the motion. No matter I suppose it was done to enhance your members confidence in its association to follow and what they wanted/wished.

PNB.

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:41 pm

Why the hell are you still going on and on about past errors Peter. This is why the changes are coming in, ATFs will soon be on a one-to-one basis with the training provider at the School of Farriery, before you had to go through NFTA, and even the teachers at the college were not allowed to speak to the ATF as they also had to go through NFTA. That now will all change for the better, so stop harping on about what things use to be and get interested in how many are trying like hell to make it far better. Finally eight of the last ten finalist in the World Blacksmithing Championships in Canada last week were trained under our system, and the last five left standing on Sunday were all from the UK. So do you really think we have such a big problem that no one but you can fix Peter????

Chris Linssner
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:25 pm

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:06 pm

Peter
I am not going down the tit for tat route with you.
Read my previous postings and do not change them round to suit your way of thinking.
I do not think we can not have a private only system. The colleges will not support this. They put a lot of money into having farriery in their colleges and need continuity of apprentices. One or two years with a small group may be enough to turn them away from us.
Like it or not they have to run like a business.

You are right John, things have got to be better and your last point was spot on.

Chris Linssner
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:25 pm

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:08 pm

All

Anyone know a farrier looking for a few days work over the next couple of weeks.
i am flat on my back with sciatica. Farriers lament.

Chris

Chris Linssner
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:25 pm

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:36 am

Oh dear

So nobody has any ideas on what the apprenticeship could be.
I will start the ball rolling.

Do we need field officers? The answer is yes. We need them because(mainly) the government needs to know that these students actually exist and they are not paying for students no longer on a course.
Next question is what should they do when they come out. Apart from the H&S, welfare and government questions about healthy living and drugs taking and ethnic discussions. The visits i feel can be a good help to the apprentice and ATF.
The apprentice should have completed their action plan to date and should be in for a holy rocket if not. They should be in dread of the FO visit if they had not kept on top of their work. The action plan should be progressive and by that i mean that it should show weaknesses in the students work and also strengths. It should show how the apprentice has tackled new parts of the job over the last six years and how they are achieving to meet their targets.
For the ATF who mainly think the visit is a waste of their time this is a time to get feedback on where the apprentice needs help and how to help them reach their targets.

ATF training. A hot topic. Should the ATF do more training? How often? What type of training? More centralised around teacher training i feel with an insight into student learning. The L11 course on offer nowadays seems hopelesly inept. How often should training take place.? Yearly, bi-annually
ATF's of the future are going to have to be to AWCF standard. Is this a good thing? ATF's at present have to take a shoemaking assessment every 10 years. Do you not feel that they should have to make any shoe on the apprentices corriculum? Perhaps take a selection of shoes made at home. After all they are training the apprentice.

Is this enough to get you started.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc and WCF fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:20 am

Chris,

Assisting the young employee to be able to do the job of shoeing horses when he qualifies is all that matters, Action Plans, living in fear of FO, duplicating the duties of other statutory bodies [H&S etc] it all amounts to Box Ticking, that's what stunk about the previous system and you propose more of the same??

What is needed is EMPATHY and PRACTICAL support, FO that will get the tools out of the back of their car, demonstrate how to SHOE HORSES and correct any deficit in the shoes they have previously prepared, to check how the lads are doing the job on the FOOT, show how young men are to work on and cope with young and difficult horses when not in the best of situations. Who gives a F about what the government think by checking numbers of young employees?? The craft could function well without their monies, I doubt FRC, WCF and the training agencies could, but who really cares they don't actually shoe or matter.

I said it before,the point is not finding seats for worn out craftsmen, it about providing suitably qualified new farriers to replace them!!

My comment:- we as a craft need brooms to brush away the trash that has built up on the shop floor and not a shovel to pile more of the same old horse S on top of the pile. You are vice president of BFBA, an employer and were a field officer step aside and allow/involve the tradesmen who do the job daily into the process and not the the farriers who don't or can't any longer and are being driven by an out dated old boys club who think the slave whip is the best tool in tradesmen's truck!!

PNB.

Chris Linssner
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:25 pm

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:35 am

Peter

Two points.

I totally agree that your descriptions of how the FO should work and that is spot on and was how i tried to operate as a FO.
That was good thoughfull feedback and worth further discussion.

Your second point that i should step aside has been taken on board. i tried to get sensible debate going on the future of the apprenticeship as Stuart suggested. I see its clear now that there is no debate here.
Its Peter Bakers way or the highway.

If I am a worn out old tradesman then what the F are you because you are older than me.
I won't bother you any more.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc and WCF fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:17 pm

Chris,

Bad back making you touchy??

You know what I am on about, the people who make political decisions about the future of farriery!! The people think our working craft should be kept out of the decisions loop i.e. those who know best, and need government monies as their organisations "have no funds", RECENT QUOTE senior officer FRC!!

I think somewhere in the post you are objecting to, you are refering too, you will see the WORDS EMPLOYER, ATF, NFBA vice and ONCE a FIELD OFFICER are recorded, so tell if we have to have Field Officers [a poor name!!] who the hell else is qualified to be a FO if its not you and an AWCF to boot!!

Chris, If you need SELECTIVE MEMORY and narrow reference in order to petty point score that's fine but its down to you not Me. A couple of years back were you not in the process of moving away from the UK anyway?? So what is the deal here was it not you that requested responses??

PNB.

Italian stallion
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:40 pm

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:38 pm

Chris,
As for training, I'm happy with college, master, apprentice, field officer i feel it needs real debate with the craft before we go back down that line.

ATF's will need to have the standard of a AWCF, well this will be a sore point with many, for example I've seen with my own eyes an AWCF in the royal welsh show fail to forge a simple shoe, I've seen a very large FWCF make nice shoes but was to fat too shoe the horse. Would you on the day see these as suitable employers, I think not.

Before we go down the road of playing GOD with who can and who can't employ an apprentice you best retest all current ATF's, this way we will be starting will a clean slate, be prepared for one hell of a shock at the amount that are current ATF's that don't meet the target.

Regards,

E.w.

P.s. hope your back is better soon take tare.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc and WCF FIT for purpose

Postby PNB » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:50 am

EW,

Your Quote,"Before we go down the road of playing GOD with who can and who can't employ an apprentice you best retest all current ATF's, this way we will be starting will a clean slate, be prepared for one hell of a shock at the amount that are current ATF's that don't meet the target".

Once an employer gets young employees/trainees, [more than one usually] they tend to take their foot off the gas and apart from fitting up the rest of the work is undertaken by the youngsters [supervised]!! You are right recent photographs demonstrate they tend bulk up!! and they have to find it difficult to work UNDER HORSES!! However it would have to be demonstrated if their ability to surpervise young employees was impieded or the quality of the job on the horses foot was up to standard!!

The biggest comment I get and almost weekly and this is at the nub of it!!, "The boss man doesn't come out any longer he sends his apprentices!!". How does that reported comment fit into your observations?? The job on the foot needs to be a huge part of any assessments. Getting back to it colleges don't have enough horses to call upon!! so Chris it needs mentors to confirm what young employees actually are doing in the street and to complete the process how they do/achieve it.

PNB.

csc
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40 am
Location: berks

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:41 am

if we continue with Fo,s then they need to be trained with at least assessor qualifications.
peters comments are more in line with government thinking.
training farriers are employers and in other industrys need no formal qualifications, its considered there practical experiences important.
everyone has the right to employ

these are not my personal views its how I see things. personaly I would agree with chris but this is not how things seem to work with funding.
I belive no ATF should have more than one apprentice, and the numbers should be reduced to 50 per annum. there should be a 1 or 2 year period where a potential apprentice should be able to get a insight into the craft before any commitment
those that make shiney shoes do not neciseraly make practical farriers just good at the bullshit.

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:06 pm

Everyone has the right to employ, but no one has the right to teach others? Those who wish to employ due to being busy should employ qualified farriers, and pay them the rate that their qualifications deserve.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc WCF fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:05 am

FORDYBALLS!!

John,

I agree with your last posting, with one massive EXCEPTION and that is you strike out, " But no one has the right to teach others? ". That sentence is a true FORDISM bull---t !!

The fact is and EW pointed it out last evening, from the moment ANY MAN young or old enters employment, [it as FORDY points out many times before!!] he never stops LEARNING and if he is drawing a wage his employer dictates what he has to do and the way he has to do it and by "teaching" believe it or not. Learning/Teaching are they then not then both the same being done to attain a satisfactory EFFECTS ??

"A RIGHT to teach" on an Employer/Employee basis doesn't enter into it!! it is the only way a joint satisfactory outcome can happen. CPD is the a prime example of mature men expanding their knowledge base [something FORDY again harps on and on about ] and their SKILL LEVELS, and how; by being shown and thus by TEACHING!!

PNB.

EW, My head has cleared after a good nights sleep.

csc
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40 am
Location: berks

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:08 am

FORDY LOOK UPON LINE the govements requirements for apprentices,do not be blinkered by farriery traditions and bear in mind its the piper that calls the tune

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:38 pm

My comment about who should train has been interpreted the wrong way. I believe that teaching is an art which not everyone possesses. Just because you have been shoeing for years and are top class at it, doesn't say that the same person can teach in a way that can bring out the best in the student. You can use the same argument for such things as Racehorse Trainers, as the top jockeys don't generally make good trainers. In Football the best managers are never the best in their playing days on the field.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:43 pm

YET MORE "FORDY BALLS".

John,

Why commit big time then change tack when you see you were Blatently WRONG!! A beautifully penned, sentenced, phrased and punctuated response non the less!!

Question, what about Alex Ferguson, then again Matt Busby and Stuart Pearce Maybe?? Then we could look at foreign managers presently managing European and UK clubs, I remember many of them as STARS of a few years past.

PNB.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc WCFfit for purpose

Postby PNB » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:01 pm

John,

I feel you are missing something regarding the governments view regarding training apprentices. This may help. It's an abstract of Lord Wolf's report and the Richards review,
which is presently framing new government legislation.

Each subject should have only one industry approved Awarding Body, FARRIERY HAS TWO WCF AND BHEST.

There must be a single examination at the end of an apprenticeship, FARRIERY presently HAS A LEAST FOUR NO INTENT ABOUT REDUCTION WAS VOICED AT COUNCIL ON 27th JUNE 2013, That is IN MY PRESENCE ANYWAY.

The standard of the qualification must be industry approved. IT IS FRAMED BY WCF, APPROVED BY FRC BY MAJORITY VOTING [WCF MAJORITY INFLUENCING IS suspected].
.
Redefining apprenticeships: They should be targeted only at those who are new to a job or role that requires sustained and substantial training, YOUNG OR INEXPERIENCED ENTRY ??

Focusing on the outcome of an apprenticeship - what the apprentice can do when they complete their training - [b][u]and freeing up the process by which they get there[/u][/b]. Trusted, independent assessment is key, PRESENTLY SEEMINGLY UNDERTAKEN by BHEST , assessed at college and VERIFIED IN THE MAIN by BHEST, NB INDEPENDENT IDO YOU THINK SO OR NOT!!

All apprentices should reach a good level in English and maths before they can complete their apprenticeship NOT BEFORE THEY START IT!!THIS IT SEEMS CREATES A MAJOR PROBLEM WITHIN GOVERNMENT ON ITS OWN.

Government funding must create the right incentives for apprenticeship training. The purchasing power for investing in apprenticeship training should lie with the employer , NB, LIE WITH THE EMPLOYER !!

Greater diversity and innovation in training - with employers and government safeguarding quality, EMPLOYERS and GOVERNMENT SAFEGUARDING QUALITY !!

I Understood you had sight of the relevant documents as you said now it in your posting, seems from your posting you DIDN'T.

[Please note, The capitilisation represents is my comments.

PNB

csc
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40 am
Location: berks

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:08 pm

so the real question has to be how many APPRENTICES PER ANNUM
we need 50 only to maintain things at the moment we are producing 200 per year to many
the answers are train only 50 per year and say bollocks to funding ( we may not be able to stop funding)
or continue at will ( the outcome eventually will mean far to many ,possibly making farriery into a second income job )

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:03 pm

Stuart,

Farriery Apprenticeship does not and cannot be dovetailed to fit into the government matrix of Modern Apprenticships, it didn't under the Old System and will not under the proposed New 3 college outline . I feel our craft has to walk.

Reasoning:- Farriery is not an EMPLOYMENT CRAFT nearly all registered farriers go self employed and secondly the proposed new systems in no way matchs the governments framing documents the Wolfe/Richards reports,[see above] .

To effect sensible entry numbers has to depend on pricing upon young entry being paid the statutory minimum wage, uplifting the wages to above £7 per hour from the present apprentice rate of £2 + per hour. If the employer farrier numerically then over employs market forces,ie, cost efficent factors and financial viability will kick in.

PNB.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:32 am

Stuart,

Your quote, "the outcome eventually will mean far to many ,possibly making farriery into a second income job"

Interesting thought!! True over production is something which will make farriery an artisan pass time.

If you look at the job hard, at their peak productive years farriers spend a lot less time bent double under horses than they did. Theyare following following other persuits playing polo, golf, hunting, shooting, fishing, racing, taking part in horse shoeing competitions all around the world , teaching commercially , horse dealing, undertake blacksmithing and have other retailing or manufacturing farrier related business interests.

You observation is correct we must however BE AWARE of CRAFT SATURATION!!

PNB.

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:07 pm

What goes around, comes around. When I was born there was at least one Blacksmith shop in every village, with everyone competing for the same business. Then the Tractor was invented which led to many farrier's out of work. So then in the 1960s there were not enough farriers to shoe the growing number of horses in the equine leisure industry. Enter John Ford and loads of other people running an equine business and not being able to get a farrier to shoe the horses for months. Yes we have had it good, but now as I said before, What goes around comes around, and you aint going to stop it.


Return to “farriers discussion board”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests