Are Frc for purpose

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PNB
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:55 am

Chris,

" Ideal apprenticeship", what cloud are you on, my posting was a "WHAT IF", (what if farriery was to become deregulated and as I see it it that is not within our control (the crafts )!! not a suggestion of how the future is desired by me but just a statement of how thinks would then be.

Seemingly the exam Dwcf would still be there, but not a prerequisite of /to registration, FARRIERY registration would be gone. The EXAM would be as an end product of voluntary CPD, just as it was pre 1975. A good thing ?? I do not think so!! but how on the surface it would be "A FREE FOR ALL" . Please remember the 7 years we did at The Rural Development Commission, Salisbury. Me firstly to get out of part 4, onto part1 and later both of us to achieve AWCF.

Please read my above "WHAT IF " what if posting again and view it with a positive spin that deregulation may not be a terminal thing should it be IMPOSED on our honourable craft. A backward step "YES"', but insurmountable or FARRIERY terminal "NO".

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csc
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:58 am

john you have a good point if more people were pro active and supported BFBA then they would have more clout, however how do we deal with the incestuous nature of WCF BFBA FRC If BFBA wish to progress then as a farrier representation body surely should be totally independent of the other two
Chris I for one believed what Peter stated regarding apprentices being funded sorry if I am wrong but I cant find a counter argument from the time in question however I am more than happy to accept your statement.
I think the whole point is that the 1975 act has been abused by FRC. claiming it has mandates that don't exist within the act. that farriery has become constricted because of this and many people are complaining not only amongst themselves but to various government bodies.
if WCF FRC continue with there dictorial attitude then registration will be abolished

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:10 am

The government are looking hard into de regulation. And not just farriery. They need to save pennies wherever they can and it seems to hell with the consequences because they wont be there to pick up any of the fallout from this.
Cliff as chair of the FASG had been arranged to meet the MP in charge of this from the governments angle. This MP has a constituency and lives in Cornwall so where does he set up a meeting but in Redruth at Simon Moores forge at 4pm on a Friday evening. Now that would have been a fun trip down the A303.
They will make things as hard for everyone concerned so there can be seen to be no opposition to anything they do.
When all was arranged with Cliff, the Registrar of FRC and WCF and Simon, the meeting was cancelled from his end. They are not interested in dialogue.

BTW with de regulation will come a free for all for any European member to come to the UK to work.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:06 am

Chris,

"BTW with de regulation will come a free for all for any European member to come to the UK to work."

Above is Your quote, what are you saying??

We at present are all part and parcel of Europe, providing European farriers have the right FARRIERY experience we can work in Germany or France and in any other European country if we wish, we as easily no more easily than other Europeans, who can come to the UK to work as farriers. Several of us (working craftsmen) took this matter to the House of Lords a few years , one of your next door neighbours (Lady -----------) came with us and heard Lord Addington represent UK FARRIERY to the Lords and outline the dangers of influxes of other European Farriers coming here on mass, he was heard, supported and applauded, the iinflux didn't happen then so is it more likely to happen NOW?? (Check HANSARDS if you wish!!. It will be recorded there no doubt). Anyway with the absence of funding for apprentices and the high costs involved at least there may well be an available work force at £7.20 per hour.

There is however one future proviso and that depends on 23rd June 2016.

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csc
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:59 pm

one problem guys they get far more a set in Europe over 100 euros I am told so why come here?

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby ferrador » Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:30 am

not quite right , some farriers get 100s of euros but its certainly not unusual for some to charge 40 , coming back to the uk , there is a pole down the road charging £45. 00 a set and reckons that is double the price of what he would get if at home , there is an italian not far away who is very much the same and he has fust gone up to £50

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Mon May 02, 2016 9:55 am

Peter
The only thing stopping the Europeans coming to the UK is the registration Act. Without that anyone from Europe will be allowed to work here. Not just a farriery problem but general working across Europe. The European government is more interested in cross border movement and freedom of employment than the Farriers act that they would see as restrictive.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Mon May 02, 2016 10:41 am

Thanks,

Chris that clears that one up then!!

PNB.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Mon May 02, 2016 11:01 am

I have to agree with Chris, without the Farrier Registration Act 1975 we will have no control what-so-ever of who shoes horses and where they come from. Join BFBA now, as it is the only way of bringing solidarity among farriery tradesmen and women, to fight off the ending of an industry which has led the world for years. For once in your lives, put away your prejudicial opinions, dip your hands in your pockets for a cause that would then have the backing power to fight our corner from a very strong position. Without doing a thing we will be cutting off our nose to spite our faces.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Tue May 03, 2016 5:15 am

WHAT HAPPENS IF WE LEAVE EUROPE

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Tue May 03, 2016 11:47 am

Stuart,

Seems the problems feared about of an influx of European fafarriers will not go away as Europeans are seemingly accommoded in the ACT.

I suggest the correct person to know about this would be Chris L. I have no doubt BFBA have enquired about this possibility, they have solicitors in tow to advise. To me it seems the Registration Act would have to be redrafted if this possibility is to be headed off.

I feel it is as well remember EFFA would be at odds with UK Craftesmen.

WE WILL SEE after 23 June 16.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Tue May 03, 2016 4:50 pm

If we leave Europe Stuart, we do have a better chance of keeping the 1975 Act. But who knows what each of our own Governments have in mind behind closed doors. As I have said in previous posts we have to get all Registered Farriers under one banner to get a fair hearing and outcome on this issue.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Wed May 04, 2016 4:11 am

John,

Are we not from the governments view point under one banner presently, the FRC!!

Sadly the FRC secretariat have a mind of their own, which doesn't communicate in farrier speak so well.

PNB.

csc
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Wed May 04, 2016 5:22 am

I don't think the act can be redrafted, and I believe Johns view is the way forward through BFBA but I don't think this will happen either

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Wed May 04, 2016 8:02 am

Pnb, is correct we farriers has little say whilst FRC exists they don't include farriers, they simply do as the WCF dictate, that has always been the case.

BFBA do there best, at the end of the day all should be included in any talks, however we on the forum have been excluded regardless of our view we should be allowed to participate, BFBA would find that uniting all would give us a stronger voice, this won't happen whilst some of the old guard are present within BFBA.
You see it takes people to come together,and then it's one strong voice that will bring pressure to bear on FRC. BFBA need to reach out and include all and not exclude anyone regardless of there views it's called democracy.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Wed May 04, 2016 3:41 pm

Italian Stallion, the FRC are the regulators of the 1975 Act, which is very close to the Police being in charge of laws laid down by Governments. The WCF are the regulators and controllers of Farriery Exams. It is also laid down in the 1975 Act that the WCF have to appoint a Chairman of the FRC. Therefore no matter how load one shouts about one or other having differing powers, all is above board within the 1975 Act. Regardless of all arguments and tital-tattle of unsubstantiated stories about BFBA, this is the only independent organisation that can negotiate our cause with the above controlling bodies. Whilst BFBA have less than a third of all Registered Farriers on their books, the annual fee is £162. It may sound like pie-in-the-sky to most of you, but there is at present 2841 farriers on the register, if BFBA had 95% of these farriers on their books, not only would the annual subscription be reduced substantially, the power of their voice in negotiations with the controlling bodies would be so much stronger than it is now. If most of us farriers continue to not care less, and only think about themselves and their own little business, without looking outside their own little cocoon, I and many of us won’t be surprised if or when it goes belly-up, but by then it will be far too late.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Thu May 05, 2016 4:50 am

well said John

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Mon May 09, 2016 3:49 pm

CHRIS

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Report this post


Quote






Postby Chris Linssner » Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:10 am

YOUR POSTING BELOW DOESNT SEEM TO BE TRUE are you active within bfba or is Ciff pulling the strings.

www.hoofblog.com

The government are looking hard into de regulation. And not just farriery. They need to save pennies wherever they can and it seems to hell with the consequences because they wont be there to pick up any of the fallout from this.
Cliff as chair of the FASG had been arranged to meet the MP in charge of this from the governments angle. This MP has a constituency and lives in Cornwall so where does he set up a meeting but in Redruth at Simon Moores forge at 4pm on a Friday evening. Now that would have been a fun trip down the A303.
They will make things as hard for everyone concerned so there can be seen to be no opposition to anything they do.
When all was arranged with Cliff, the Registrar of FRC and WCF and Simon, the meeting was cancelled from his end. They are not interested in dialogue.

BTW with de regulation will come a free for all for any European member to come to the UK to work.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Sat May 14, 2016 6:08 am

Fit for what for. Geogtaphic influences driving horses off roads.

I don't know but suspect that outside of the industries (polo and racing) the numbers of SHOD horses seem to be sliding off the scale!!

This concept was the result of two farriers talking about trends in heavily trafficked southern England. Sememingly the danger from traffic has caused driven horses and now ridden horses off the roads and onto surfaces. Horses worked on surfaces simply need their feet maintained with a competent trim 3 or 4 times a year, shoes in specific cases maybe needed in front but arena used horses will do very well barefoot out of competition.

This idea was put forwards to me yesterday, anybody outside the polo and racing industries noticed this trend??

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:04 pm

Somebody has made you out to look real stupid Chris, as that meeting went ahead as posted in forge mag, when you were telling us it had been cancelled.

You need some reliable source as it looks like someone has taken you up the garden path.

Regards.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:38 pm

That should read the farriers bulletin in the above post.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:20 pm

All,

To fill in the blanks.

Your Northen area Elected FRC rep supported by the three other elected members on FRC has lodged a Complaint against how the WCF nominates the Chairman of FRC without reference or the consideration of other FRC members specifically the elected members!!

In the last couple of days a considerable number of letters between the elected members and the secretariat at Sefton House have surfaced. It is in the opinion of councillors Craig, Gordon and Baker that these documents be bought to the attention of the other working registered farriers Craftesmen in the UK. A précis of these documents will also be posted here by the subscribers on the site and as many of you whose email addresses, about 1300 that I have, will in the next few days be sent Emails.

If you do not feel we have your up to date email addresses please please lodge them with ADMIN of THE HORSES MOUTH.

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csc
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:53 am

This is all due to the fact that your elected members are being persecuted and silenced because the establishment are trying to strengthen the 1975 act as you may well have read in the bulletin.
what the spin does not say is that the meeting with G Eustace was totally WCF lead and there was one local farrier and his apprentice.
also regarding illegal farriery the bulletin claims to have carried out 72 enforcement's what it doesn't say is that it was against late paying farriers.
there have in fact been no prosecutions against illegal farriery

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:09 am

PAUL GORDON DipW.C.F ​
PROFESSIONAL FARRIER


Anvil Cottage
27 West Street
Haslington
Cheshire
CW1 5PL

willowforge@hotmail.com

​​​​​Tel. 07973 752693

21st June 2016

Farriers Registration Council
Sefton House
Adam Court
Newark Road
Peterborough
PE1 5PP


David Greenwood ​ Registrar
Paul Stilgoe ​​operations Superintendent RSPCA
Mr A B Charlwood ​chairman Farriers Registration Council.





With Reference to your letter dated 14th June 2016

I feel that the letter has left me feeling intimidated, and a threatened as an individual, also to the position I hold on the farrier’s registration council as elected member.
I feel that I am being singled out and persecuted, with the intent of getting me removed from council, or even facing disciplinary acting.

I am an elected member of council, and have been for eight years, and in that time represented the farriers and their views and issues, many of which I have brought to the attention of council.

One of those issues, I have been asked to represent and support, is the appointment of chairman to the Farriers Registration council.

The appointment of chairman is made solely by the Worshipful Company, behind closed doors, and with no consultation with the Farriers Registration Council or input. They are simply informed who the chairman is to be,

I have been asked to push for a change in this undemocratic proses, the other three members of council, Craig D’Arcy, Peter Baker, Stuart Craig, who are also elected member, openly support that the proses be changed to a more open, and democratic procedure.

Also the other elected member supported the opposition to the appointment of chairman by putting their names to the request for an investigation, but none of them have received any letters, which clearly singles me out, which I find intimidating,
Since 2012 I have brought up the issue of the appointment of chairman, because I was requested to by the farriers I represent. Also if you would like to take the time and go through the minutes from the council meeting since 2012. You will, or should find when I have done so.
Also if you would like to look at my election address for 2014, which is attached, one of my main election issues, was, and still is, the appointment of chairman, and how the position of appointment should be one of open and democratic appointment.
So any claims you are making, about this being a personal issue, or attack on Mr Charlwood personally is completely without standing, it is the undemocratic appointment and closed door procedure I’m opposed to.

It is my right, and the right of every free man and woman to push for an open democratic governance, whether it be in politics or industry. And it is my right to push and fight for democratic appointments and system as an elected member representing the farriers that have elected me.

History is full of great people who have been marked as rebels and trouble makers because they fort for their rights against an undemocratic and oppressive governments or organisations,
I do not class myself as one of these heroic people, but just a man, who feels democracy and the freedom of democratic system is worth pushing and fighting for even when imitated and threatened but the establishment .

Even more surprisingly I am shocked bewildered at you’re reference to the media training day on 28th September 2015 which was run under Chatham House rules, as notified By Andrew Carapiet at the start of the day.
You have mention me, and the topic I spoke about, in your letter. Which is in breach of the Chatham House rules. Showing that you will draw no boundary to the manor you will stoop too, to discredit and have me removed from council.
This could be interpreted as unprofessional and ungentlemanly conduce.
Hence this letter, with your letter has also been forwarded to my MP Edward Timpson, and MP Theresa May Home Secretary as I now feel I need the protection from the establishment I have so proudly served as an elected member in representing the farrier who elected me, and the issues they have asked me for push and fight for.





It is relevant that the issue of the section or appointment of chairman of the farriers registration council is mention as much and as often as needed, because of the review of the act before Parliament,
Because if the act gets past as it is, the situation of appointment of chairman will remain the same for several decades, so now is the time, and the only time before it gets presented to Parliament, for this monopolistic and undemocratic appointment produce is out of date, and not relevant to a modern developed industry and craft such as farriery.

I have been a Farrier for forty years this September. And with the other elected farrier members of council, we have over a combined experience of farriery and the industry of over one hundred and thirty years, and still the worshipful company will not listen to our input and the concerns we bring to the council table, because of their fear, that if we persist, someone may listen, and democracy will prevail.





Yours Sincerely






Paul Gordon, DipWCF Elected member of the Farriers Registration Council.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:01 am

All, a bit more:-

Stuart Craig
Club Director
Bluey’s Polo Club
Twyford Road
Waltham St. Lawrence
RG10 0HE
M: 07930323263
polomanager@blueyspolo.co.uk
www.blueyspolo.co.uk
Blueys Logo - website


From: Stuart Craig [mailto:stuart@equicentre.co.uk]
Sent: 23 June 2016 10:35
To: 'mayt@parliament.uk' <mayt@parliament.uk>
Subject: ref 6th June letter to Mr Craig

Dear Mrs May
Further to your reply I have forwarded a letter that Mr P Gordon our northern area representative on the Farriers Registration Council has previously sent to you,
My concern are that
1. No decision was democratically made
2.we have not been included in the DEFRA consultation
3. we feel chairmanship should be elected and not dictated
4. our concerns of an outside monopoly by a London dining club The Worshipful Company of Farriers is a dictatorship not a democracy that will be strengthened with the DEFRA amendment, and excludes the working craft.

Kind regards,

Stuart

Stuart Craig
Club Director
Bluey’s Polo Club
Twyford Road
Waltham St. Lawrence's
RG10 0HE
M: 07930323263
polomanager@blueyspolo.co.uk
www.blueyspolo.co.uk
Blueys Logo - website

PNB
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:38 pm

Election Address 2014

Over the past couple of years there have been many changes in the industry, and I have to admit, not all for the better! Because many of these changes have been made by people have no idea what being a farrier is about. As your elected member of council I have stood up and fort against issues which I feel have been persecuting you, as if you where to blame for the faults in farriery industry
An army is only as good as its leaders, and you are a greatest army of farriers, you deserve leaders that support you, not blame you!
A fee was charged to be an ATF, it was set at £150 I questioned that, and asked it to be calculated, it came back as £50.00 A member of council, requested we charge £75.00 I opposed that, and got £50.00
Grandfather rights should be an auto right to all existing ATF’s ¾ of all ATF’s are Dips, and have done, and are doing a fantastic job of being trainers, and I will fight tooth and nail to make sure all existing ATF’s qualify for Grandfather rights.
Barefoot trimmers need regulating and to be hold an accredited qualification, and not some made up qualification from some course that took two weeks! And they need to be on the FRC register, so they can be held to account when things go wrong, as we have to be!
The Chairman of FRC is automatically appointed by the Worshipful company of farriers, which sounds great until you realise that the WCF is a gentleman’s club only with 375 members, and only 10% are allowed to be farriers, Hence we end up with chairman who have worked in the city, or ex-military, and there only connection with farriery, is that they’ve owned horses, you deserve a chairman, either appointed by council. Or by you the farrier, by open election, by you for you! (please view WCF website)
And it’s about time horse owners are brought into the framework of reasonability, by making sure that they carry third party (Public Liability) insurance for when we or any other professional needs to claim for an injury or incident that affects our lives or livelihood
For me to stand as a member of the Farriers Registration Council on your behalf I would consider to be an honour. I always remember I’m there to represent you.
I would need you to keep me informed with your feelings and concerns about the issues you want me to represent and support you on. So please feel free to contact me at any time

Paul Gordon DipWCF
Tel No ​07973 752693
Email​willowforge@hotmail.com

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:23 am

All,

I am sorry the letter of reply refered to above from the investigator of the chairmanship of FRC complaint has not been posted here. It was sent in PDF format and I can not find a way to download it to the Horses Mouth.

I will contact Sefton House on Monday to try to get a Windows version.

PNB?


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