Are Frc for purpose

this forum is mainly for farriers - all are welcome but don't enter if you are easily offended!

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Re: Are Frc and WCF fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:45 pm

John,

Maybe we should all take a bit of rope climb the nearest tree and hang ourselves THEN!!.

John, you have always been devoid of realistic ideas, and decried others that are trying to seek solution. Snap out of it think positive, get hold of the WCF and its satilite FRC it is their poor management and lack of vision even after multiple cautions that has landed us in this mess.

On the 27th June at FRC what they voted for in order to raise a small levy from my view point indicates they are going to give us more of the same pain. BFBA should have made a stand for the working craftsmen there and then, so why not?? [Thank you EW for reminding me that BFBA when they were going under accepted a CASH hand out to provide a mythical apprentice support system, one that was seemingly sub contracted out to a third party!! and never used!!] Effectively it seems what that amounts to is they were then bought and paid for, simply by accepting that cash and as was pointed out to me yesterday it is suspected that the BFBA marker has been called in!!.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:54 am

It's about time you tried catching up Peter. The general structure is now nearly in place, with the college's hopefully taking over on August 1st, with NFTA sacked. So apart from a few tweaks here and there the system is up and running to begin taking in new apprentices about February 2014. So shout and scream all you like, it won't do a bit of good, Stuart Craig had his chance at the last FRC meeting to do something, but decided instead to be virtually silent, and didn't even bother to put formal questions to the FRC well in advance of that meeting, so that they could have been included on the agenda.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:14 am

you are correct John however measures can be taken to ease the situation and I belive that there is answer to keep everyone happy.
at the entry end let everyone in at the qualified end let only 50

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Re: Are Frc and WCF for purpose

Postby PNB » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:36 am

Stuart,

OK we could control the farrier numbers on the register that way, but we would end up with apprentices doing all the work [supervised]. There has to be more to your thinking??

Tell us a bit more!! Ref Wages, apprentices per registered farrier, industry distrabution, central administration and the proposed training levy for WCF/FRC, goverment funding [yes-no] those are 5+ questions that imediatly come to mind ; questions??

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:40 am

you are correct John I was referring to the posting on page 1 I had not seen your latest comment,
you were not at the meeting

the meeting result had already been decided by Bridges and Barnes as a letter had been prepared before the meeting.
we were mearly the vessel used to give credit and authority to it
saying all that there was no alternative but to go with the colleges

NOW LISTEN CAREFULLY JOHN we as a craft can not see what alternatives there are!!!!!! we are to blinkered with the old system, HOWEVER JOHN others outside the craft can ,and they see it as a opertunity

THIS IS THE POINT THAT EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE MISSING OR DENYING .SO WE MAY THINK THE SITUATION HAS BEEN SORTED
WHEN INFACT IT MAY ONLY BE THE BEGINING of something neither the WCF,FRC or BFBA have any control over

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:44 am

TO all
if other providers sucseed in in offering apprentiships. then it may not be economically viable for colleges to continue

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:01 am

Peter
THIS IS MY PERSONAL VIEW apprentices would do a two year course basic blacksmithing , reading, writing computers, welding wrenching and clenching all the stuff that has to be done at college regarding non farriery.
they would receive the wage Gov advises ,and would at the end get a NVQ or similar qualification .
this would get rid of all the dross and those that decide farriery is not for them, or find the work to hard.
any registered farrier could take these people on, this in turn would make it legal for farriers and ATFs who at present already use people illegally as apprentice application letters all say they take of shoes and finish off
so this is widespread
the candidate could then go on to become a farrier If so wished
with 2 years of experience knowing what he was going to let himself in for.
giving only 50 places a year ,the candidate could then get more experience working as a employee or freelance until a place was available and go on and do a 3year apprentiship for the dip w
this as I see it would meet the crafts requirements and govenments

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Re: Are Frc fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:53 am

Stuart,

I don't know if I understand fully but I will work through this slowly in several postings. Are you proposing an extended pre-farriery 2 year course, seemingly similar to the one we have now, but getting in approved by the FRC as "As a Recognised Course of Training", to allow training of shoe removal and foot finishing. You state this something that is presently/commonly being done outside of the Farriers Registration Acts and therefore is commonly the subject to legal and disciplinary complaint.

One question is this to be undertaken at college or within the farriery workplace, or if in both places at which ratio??

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Re: Are Frc fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:30 am

Stuart,

Your quote, "the candidate could then go on to become a farrier If so wished
with 2 years of experience knowing what he was going to let himself in for."

This is the bit I don't quite understand, is it that you are suggesting the FRC create the JOB position of FARRIER ASSISTANT ?? bringing them inside the lawful definition of Training Permitted Farriery, this is again something that presently happens in the Street; disiplinary meetings reports flag this up [but that only refers to those that get caught], It seems no one has actually looked or knows how commonly farrier assistants are in fact used!! I would suggest it is fairly common!!

THUNDER the site has crashed!!

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:56 am

yes peter I am and as a doorman/ journeyman would only be able to work with registered farriers buy would be in a position to negotiate his price
farriery assistants at present are widely used a lot more common than people think usually they are potential apprentices going with the local lad or by ATFs who sometimes have them for years before taking them on.
I heard at the weekend of a case of a lad working for 2 years with still no apprentiship being offered

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:53 pm

Peter

Even though you asked me to stand aside and only let "working" tradesmen sort out the training issues, which I took as a compliment because it meant you had no answers to the truth that i can ram down your computers throat.
I have done as you asked until you come out more untruths regarding BFBA.
Even though this has been explained to you before and was started before i came to the EC i will bullet point it for you:
.The FTA did not bail out BFBA.
.BFBA did provide an independent body for apprentices to get legal unbiased support.
.The support system was used by many apprentices regularly.
. No i cannot tell you by how many because it is confidential.
.BFBA is independent and cannot be bought
.There is no marker to call in.
.there is now no independent bodies for the apprentices to call.
.we at HQ get a lot of calls from apprentices and ATF's for advice.
I have just wiped out the last sentence that had the words sun, stick it and where but that would be rude so i will say Have a Nice Day.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:21 am

Chris,

So why did your president not voice the concerns of the working craft/your members at FRC??

You said above, NFBA undertook a working craft survey, not a single word was raised about what was said in its response regarding matters/concerns and observations raised, don't tell me there were none as several others and I filed a response. you never answered the earlier question were are the responses to the survey published??

You have raised the other matters ,why do BFBA not ACT as an independent, are apprentices no longer automatically enrolled as BFBA members?? If not why not?? This is regarding your QUOTE, " There is now no independent bodies for the apprentices to call."

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:35 am

Peter

The survey results will be in the next forge mag that went to print monday.

BFBA does act as independent and of course apprentices are still members enrolled as automatically.
I meant they have no official support from the very bodies set up to support them.
We offer support and advice as we are able.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:41 pm

Chris,
Very clever use of words, BFBA is one of the same as the old cult NAFBAE, they got money to keep them going, call it what you may, council approved that money, and ever after that day you have been paying for that mistake, it's called towing the party line as HUW he will explain it to you.

Regards,

E.w.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:18 pm

guys where are we GOING WITH THIS!!!

I thought we were supposed to be discussing future training needs

lets look to the future please give me some input of what you concider is farriery needs CHRIS do you have any views

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:28 pm

Csc,
As for training I like your system, anyone should be allowed to employ the young entry, a couple of years learning the trade can only be a good thing. College , master, and apprentice has a nice ring to it.

Regards,

E.W.

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Re: Are Frc, WCF fit for purpose

Postby PNB » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:26 am

Stuart, EW,

If government guidelines are to be followed [Wolfe/ Richards] I have little doubt that the Three College System cannot be implemented, that is unless the old boys handshake CAN OVER RIDE!!

It is for this purpose Stuart's suggestion, if for no other reason has to studied and explored in detail, and there are many other reasons to consider!! Apathy rules today even your association BFBA who we understand have been trying to explore options for 5 plus years, all without any outcomes and to no avail!!

Does it not follow that no matter who or what makes the suggestion it is imperative a "FALLBACK POSITION" has to be taken/established, please wake up Stuarts is the only viable fallback alternative IT WILL WOULD WORK and it woud ease up most of the trade restriction of the previous that system, placed upon on the attendant and varing parties who are/were being PREVENTED from coordinating efforts by the TRAINING CARTEL inhibiting interaction.

Please remember that two outside of our craft agencies colapsed the previous training matrix. Possibly/probably we as a craft will have to endure 18 months devoid of employer dependent young entry as a result, without a viable "FALLBACK POSITION" tvarious his timeline could easily double, which may amount to there being zero youngsters training within in farriery by the end of 2015. Does it not follow then with no new entry the colleges will be shut down??

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:40 am

I am not sure what you are on about Peter.
Like it or not there are systems being put in place for apprentices to be started in February. It will not be 100% perfect and will need several years of tweaking to get right. Just because you dont like it doesnt make it wrong.
Everytime you mention BFBA you add aload of untruths. look at all my previous postings for correct information about the part we played in this. Do not make it up to suit yourself.
If you want apathy look no further than your involvement which means you look no further than your computer screen.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:25 am

the question now is should ATFs be restricted to one apprentice each

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:35 am

Chris you are not taking on board the facts , INSOMUCH AS ANYONE CAN APPLY FOR GOVENMENT FUNDING FOR APPRENTISHIPS. there are about five companys looking into this in conjunction with other colleges this could undermine the college system by making it uneconomical.
everyone should start thinking out of the box
go online and look up farriery on LARA it says its a open access course then look up BHEST and see what training requirements are SEE FOR YOURSELF
we are warning of things THAT MIGHT COME( ITS NOT MY PERSONAL VIEW)

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:36 am

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO BE TURNING OUT 250 FARRIERS A YEAR

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:41 am

Chris,

Do you have anything relative to add to this debate. It seems you are no longer the man I trained with, every time you come on line you fling personal abuse and insults at my efforts.

Please note, liking it or not doesn't come into my efforts, seemingly you were no small part of the decision [BFBA] to go down the three college route or were you, you dress the three colleges [or is it now two??] up as the only way, simply it is not the only way and definately from where I sit not the best way. You harp on about the association and how brilliant it is, yet it is sad BFBA didn't have the balls to stand up or even consider alternatives at FRC on the 27th June.

Where were you anyway on that day, were you sufficiently interest to attend at this vital time for the FUTURE of our CRAFT??.

"Apathy" wasting time sitting in front of "my computer", working alone I did twenty years of service trying to get these incestuous organisations to consider the lot of the blue collared workmen??

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:10 am

Peter
Everytime you attack BFBA with untruths i will respond. I think it is only fair to people who visit this site to get the other side of the story that is not wildly distorted.
You keep on about all the other alternatives. Can you please list them here so they are available for all to see.

Stuart
I cannot find anything about "farriery on Lara" and BEHEST only one line on farriery in the racing industry. Can you give me some website add's to follow. Will keep looking.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:29 am

Chris go to lara then go to search then to the right hand side type in farriery and it comes up I will bring a copy tomorrow night

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:54 pm

Chris,

Your quote, " You keep on about all the other alternatives. Can you please list them here so they are available for all to see"??

I really hoped some one would ask!! I will in the next couple of days outline a system based on Stuarts observations, that I feel would marry with Wolfe and Richards that would allow Farriery Training to inter-mesh with other Arts Crafts, Small Industries and other Trades in the UK. I dare say after I post you again will undermine my intentions, but I suppose to go forwards I will have to ignore any insults!!

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:18 am

Chris,

To open up your request I will repost CSC note that I understand he sent to all members of FRC prior to FRC 27th June. This note it seems from posting made on The Horses Mouth some of you didn't know about, CSC's document was not debated that day and references to it were deflected by the Chair.

The outcome!The Three College System means certain small issues CSC raised will need ironing out but that is small and simple process.

The text of Councilor Craig's note:-

CS Craig’s proposals:-

"Dear Members of the FRC

We are all aware of the current situation.

As the Council we are all ultimately responsible for our failures to address all the warnings that were given to us over the years of which as we all know. We are all aware of the resignation of a colleague on council so we have had plenty of warning and make no mistake government agencies could remove us all from our positions of authority.

Farriery training is changing dramatically we are now moving forward at great speed and farriery training is changing , we cannot hang on to the old system it is far to incestuous the WCF. NFTA. FRC. BFB, have failed to be open and transparent and been party in the past to the squandering of public funds fuelled by the greed of us all and I believe it to be mismanagement

We have all been duped into believing this is the only way. This is not and has not been the truth. Apprenticeship schemes are just one way of funding Farriery training. Government funding for all our Farriery qualifications is open to all on non-apprenticeship contract routes with no upper age limit once they have left school at 16.

By the time we get to our next FRC meeting plans will be well underway to supply an alternative form of training by independent suppliers. This still will be subject to our approval under the Act but candidates can gain the NVQ and Diploma by paying privately or with via other funding streams.

New options mean that candidates can be students not just paid apprentices and can gain knowledge and skills from a variety of experts (i.e. people known for certain farriery skills in theory ,competition shoeing , hunting, polo, dressage, racing etc). All the while the basics of the dip and the farriery syllabus will stay the same.

Some training farriers can become BHEST assessors via other BHEST approved centres – not just the NFTA and the three colleges as now. Resources for running the training can be located anywhere not just in the existing three colleges.

So there are other ways of becoming a Registered and qualified farrier as well as the NFTA Apprenticeship route which has currently failed so many young people – with sadly tragic results in a handful of cases. We must work for every candidate to succeed not just think of our own positions in all this.

I am asking all not to be blinkered and to address all new possibilities as the WCF, FRC NFTA and three colleges and the council are all responsible for the current failings identified by the Ofsted Inspection report and I believe this to be a lot more serious than we think.

CSC."

[Previously posted above]:- [Posted by the Press Office, UKHSA.]

C S Craigs proposals.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:48 am

ALl,

This thread was active in 2013, and previously. What has changed TODAY (17/04/2016).

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:01 pm

What's changed, well were do we start, one the frc & nfta got there so called training system kicked into touch by ofstead, so much for there bravado in telling the world about having the best training system in the world.

We then have frc tell us all that you must be an awcf to employ an apprentice, what a bunch of cocks they are, my spin on this is because they have lost control of training they changed the ATF system knowing full well that there will be fewer ATf's in a matter of year this will force the colleges to re think if it's viable for the them to continue training the few apprentices, surprise surprise step back in there the FRC and of course they will and can once again change the rules to suit themselves and create a new system. It's amazing what some will do for money, of course with the backing of there little mates from BFBA another bunch people most farriers in the UK find hard to trust.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:52 am

Italian stallion, I am not in anyway supporting any individual organisation as regards to all these changes within the training schedule. What I took on board at the ATF meeting last Thursday was the fact that because of government funding towards apprenticeships regardless of it being in farriery or whatever, rules and regulations are attached which the colleges have to adhere to, the ATFs have to adhere to, and also the apprentice has to adhere to. Problems were bought up with the working party groups at the meeting, many of which were taken on board which will be ironed out hopefully at a meeting between these groups in the next month or so. In September at the Farriery Focus event run by BFBA, there will be another ATF meeting with all the working groups present on the SUNDAY, which is free and all interested parties are welcome. Hopefully we will all be a lot closer to agreeing the new format which has to be in place by 2017. The final decisions when up and running, can again be reviewed and tweaked in 2020. Just on a final note and personal observation, there were just 31 active ATFs at last Thursday's meeting. If the other 200 plus ATFs in the country cant be bothered to attend these very important meetings, no one can be surprised if decisions are made against the interests of those people who train our future farriers?

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:39 pm

Hi john,
As regards the poor turn out of ATF's, can you blame them as in the past anything that has seemingly been agreed with has been randomly change without consulting the the ATF's, it's called having no trust in the WCF/FRC because at the end of the day it's them that will decide the final blue print as far as training goes weather you or I like it.

We will always find it hard to get any change when you are working with underhand people that think more of themselves than are wonderful craft.

Regards.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:15 am

no ATF representation ,no college representation, and no apprentice representation, and only four elected member's on council haw do that work?

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:29 am

Stuart,

We were all there once under the guidance of Peter Ablett.

Sadly the Body Politic/The Secretariat of the day didn't like what the ELECTED JOINT FARRIERY TRAINING COMMITTEE (JFTC) were telling them, so Ablett got SACKED and the committee was disbanded/closed down without a sensible reason ever being given. Once the JFTC cautions materialised and Ofsted took away funding from FRC/WCF a degree of panic ensued. Cliff Barnes was was invited to form a new Committee The present FARRIERY apprentice steering GROUP (FASG), a now non elected grouping who are working hard to SORT OUT the mess!! But a grouping with only powers of suggestion, Can the morass now ensuing ever be sorted?? I personally doubt it!! Deregulation seems to be a real danger for FARRIERY, maybe the only way left open ahead,it is going to need a miracle whatever

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:43 am

John,

Your quote, "There was only 31 ATFs at last Thursday's meeting". It was flagged up to me again yesterday, how many were formally told this meeting was taking place. Please, you kept an electronic minute that day can you let us know?? What I can tell you is elected members of FR C were not all notified!!

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:57 am

I have to admit Peter that this ATF meeting by BFBA was arranged with very short notice, something like four weeks before the actual event. Let's wait and see how many turn up for the meeting on Sunday 25th September at Farriery Focus?

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:10 pm

John, I wouldn't hold your hopes out for a good turnout,BFBA are inline with FRC as far as playing ball goes BFBA make out they are representing the farriers interest, that's got to be a joke they are like a guard dog with no teeth and that makes them as useful as a chocolate fire guard, neither of the above hold any credibility with farriers that's a fact just ask BFBA to tell you how many fully paid up members they have, it's in the minority not as an association that's truly representing farriers should be with a majority membership, now that's what they should work on not playing up to FRC.

Regards.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose. Employment opportunities ??

Postby PNB » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:58 am

John,

Lack of interest in training young entry is what it is all about,the bolitics presently being peddled in order to draw down government TRAINING MONIES presents to many hoops, constraints, costs and non incentives to EMPLOYEMENT?

I doubt that attendencies at meetings or craft body memberships will again become numerically worth while, the reasons being unless a farrier has a certain type of business he is walking away from young entry employment seemingly on mass, it is the simple and easy way out of THE MESS presently in place.

Just remind me please, just what this great chunk of government money paid out each year is used for?? IS it an incentive to employ young school leavers ?? On the surface this is as it seems the Goverfnment intends, I suspect as it applies to farriers it has become something different, maybe a way as you pointed out to our REGISTRAR recently , simply of maintaining a non people or CRAFT friendly administrative infrastructure.

We as Craftesmen are left depressed., repressed and to a greater degree unheard and not considered. As you are aware representations are presently being established, its a suck it and see job, but don't hold your breath.

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:46 pm

As I pointed out to the Registrar after the ATF meeting on 14th April, a point that you representatives on council should use to make the FRC see sense. The general consensuses amongst farriers is that we welcome the FRC Act 1975. But if you push us any further in your dictatorial attitude. Just remember that thousands of horses and ponies will always require shoes on their feet, for as long as they are worked, and therefore we farriers will be still working, whether we are in or out of your control. Generally horse owners couldn't care a dam about their farrier being registered, if they do a good job and keep their horse sound, they will ring us for a repeat visit. Treat us with humanity and respect, or find yourselves out of a job very quickly after the government pulls the plug on the FRC Act 1975

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:08 pm

I haven't been on here for a while but what I read leaves me feeling desperation for the future of farriery.
Peter Baker suggesting that de regulation may be the best way forward. Are you mad. This is what the government are trying hard to push for.
Just how will that improve the standard of farriery.
Itallion Stallion. If BFBA has no credibility then it is because of people like you spreading your lies and pointing your farriers finger at anyone who tries.
What would be left if there was no Association. You? I so very much doubt it. Its easy from the comfort of your front room chair. Try making some positive statements that will push English farriery forward. Remember there are two constant members of the FRC on this forum. But they are not on FRC, they are FRC.

Angry Farrier

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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:04 pm

Chris,

It's an angry you that are saying deregulation may be he best way forwards, Ccertainly not me. The whole well established system has got so messed up I have to agree with the government that deregulation now seems the logical next step if not the only way to reunite our honourable craft, but defiantly not the one desired by me. My ideal would be to get your organisation supported by the majority of working Craftesmen working together to have control of our own futures, with an end to oppression and vctomisation.

I ask, do you like getting unsolicited threatening letters from the secretariat :| ask do we need unsolicited threatening Letters, Those followed by bulletins attempting to justify the letters I don't.

You are top man in BFBA so speak up and fix it, tell us what you are attempting to do and restore our faith, we will support you to restore some dignity for you members.

Please remember you declined my last attempt to be a NAFBAE member, so this one is down to you to fix.

PNB.

Chris Linssner
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:51 pm

Peter
You said that deregulation may be the only way forward, and I don't see it as the next logical step and I don't see how it will reunite our craft. (should be profession).Your words not mine. But I am not here for tit for tat politics.
We don't shout about how the Association works behind the scenes and maybe we should. You wouldn't know that without Association intervention several farriers and some with apprentices would have been de registered last year when they ignored several reminders to re knew their registration. What reward did we get. Some of them cancelled their association membership because like Italian stallion, we get thrown into the same boat as the FRC and us being the very people that had saved them a very sever headache. The FASG group set up by Cliff. Why do you think this was done? to line ourselves with FRC? Someone without an agenda had to stand up and try to oversee the training system. And none of them on a wage or even expenses.
The meeting at Stoneleigh was asked for from ATF's so Cliff managed to get everyone there including the Vice Principal from Warwickshire college and principal from Myerscough. These are busy people so what do you think the chances of getting them all together for a meeting. BTW it wasn't four weeks but nearer six weeks advance notice. It was plastered all over the Association facebook page and shared all over from there. Every ATF was sent an email to the email address that we had for them.
I cannot say anything that will make farriers join the association,(especially the Italian stallion) that is up to their conscience but there are people working behind the scenes mostly at their own cost and we all have businesses to run. Would it be a better world without the Association. I can tell you from the words and untruths writer on this forum about BFBA I could feel like walking away from it all.

csc
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:18 am

Chris the association does do great work and we all appreciate what you have all done for the industry, fasg. farriery focus day. numerous competition's and events.
I for one know the work and time that goes into organising them.

so I will speak plainly my thoughts and they are mine with no other agenda but to be helpful.
I had to call Cliff to find out about the ATF day and could not find it on you site, my view on your site its far to busy, you fail miserably to market yourselves.

one of your chaps asked everyone for feedback on how to promote BFBA sorry I cant remember his name offhand, he obviously recognises the need for much better promotion,

I have been a loyal member for a very long time and when I joined there were various benefits to being a member.
today I still loyally pay my annual due. what do I get nothing personally with no benefits, no help with my disciplinary, or no support.

if I ran my business as BFBA do it would not be long before I lost it .BFBAwill end up with only apprentice members as controversially that's a frc earner for you.

therefore the answer has to lie at your office and I have to ask the question are your staff competently trained in texts, sponsorship, getting a insurance deals, media trained, etc, etc ,as head of this ship I would advise you this has to be your most important issue.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK CHRIS AND ALL YOU GUYS AND GIRLS IN BFBA I for one appreciate all your unpaid work and time

csc
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Location: berks

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby csc » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:26 am

regarding de regulation what would happen if we lost the act?

I personally do not think it will affect farriery why ?
illegal farriery the registrar has failed to prosecute anyone during his time and I know he has been given relevant information. on top of that countries with no regulation get paid more per set
horse welfare, the RSPCA can do that.
apprentiships are covered by uk law and grants
exams covered by the WCF.
and as Mr ford says horses will always need shoes.
so this incestuous incompedent and other words I would like to use system has to change, or go

Italian stallion
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Italian stallion » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:22 am

Dear me Chris,
Your reply sound like being president at BFBA is to much for you, lies well let's start with good old Huw Dyre on council says his little bit then abstained from voting,( does chocolate fire guard ring a bell ) knowing fell well the chair has the casting vote, and he's there to repsentent farriers interest and welfare, like I Said your a joke.

If you are honest and transparent in your dealings you'll have no problem giving us the true amount of paid up members ( registered farrier Not apprentices) the association has, there's a starting point for you, be honest.

I have nothing against the association and would happily join tomorrow, however not whilst WCF/FRC are manipulating some of you members that are on committees.

Further more if you wish to attract new members you as an association should be more open transparent and above all honest, not telling us that a lot goes on behind the scenes, that's the worrying bit exactly what goes on.

Chris. I wish you well I'm not going to enter into a slanging match with you but if you wish to speak on the phone I'm more than happy to have a conversation.

Regards .

Chris Linssner
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:02 pm

Craig.
Thank you for your replies. Just to put the record straight, the Association does not receive back handers, front handers or even side handers. In fact no payments of any kind for having apprentices as free members.
I think this fallacy stems from payments that were made to the Association to promote and support a help line for apprentices that was independent from the defunct NFTA. This was something asked for by ofsted at that time. We can not even get apprentice names any more. The colleges will not pass them over because of data protection and the FRC does not keep an up to date list, unbelievably.
We still have a full member benefits package including insurance and legal advice. All the phone number and email addresses are in the first page of every Forge magazine and have been for a very long time. The website you must have been looking at would be the Forge website and we have no control over that at all. It belongs to Mann Publications and we have a job to get anything on it. Not a very good place to be but we are building an Association website that will make the other one redundant so watch that space.
For conversation, do you lot not think that with de regulation the whole apprenticeship scheme would collapse. Farriers would just employ wrenchers and clenchers. Sure the good farriers would survive but so would the other end of the market and we know some horse owners are keen go as cheap as possible. It will be the horses that suffer and if you think you have problems with the hideous barefoot trimmers now, just wait for de regulation. it will be a free for all.

Chris Linssner
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:11 pm

Italian Stallion(what is your fricken name, I hate writing that)

I don't know where you get all your conspiracy theories from. Nothing I know of is done back handed and I don't know how we can be any more transparent. Quite honestly that sort of talk leaves me exasperated.
If you want to know anything then just ring up and ask. 07789036376, or you can put your number here and I will ring you.

PNB
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Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:57 am

All,

Let's consider a what if.

What if farrier regulation/registration is gone due to the Farriers industry having the FR Act 1975 withdrawn and all central funding stopped. To consider this as Fordy said above horses will still have to be shod thre phone will still ring, so established businesses will still be functioning!!

BFBA will still be there it exists on a Craft subscription basis anyway, if BFBA fails I feel it is as well to say that is not going to change either with or without the registration act, as Chris tells us above (President BFBA) BFBA is a stand alone. BFBA may well have to take an Enhanced roll then in Young Entry Education and Support Training, which would have to be on a privately financed basic. (Pay for what's needed not what is given). Patently a move away from forging shoes to fitting pre manufactured items, as is practiced today!! There then is a revenue stream for BABA.

Come think of it isn't this an historical model nearly matching the pre 1975 model, one, in those days when Bill Watts in an old military prefab building stepped into the breech at Hereford. The farriers trained under Bills guidance are now very senior and direct most of UK FARRIERY. So you can't say that system didn't in real time work.

So maybe there's no need to panic, things have a habit of sorting themselves out.

Just a thought,

PNB?

PNB
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:11 am

Typo,

Should read Bills training system DID DID DID work.

Sorry about this error above.

PNB.

PNB
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby PNB » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:33 pm

Regarding your question please read a posting made in 2013, does this help??

On the 27th June at FRC what they voted for in order to raise a small levy from my view point indicates they are going to give us more of the same pain. BFBA should have made a stand for the working craftsmen there and then, so why not?? [Thank you EW for reminding me that BFBA when they were going under accepted a CASH hand out to provide a mythical apprentice support system, one that was seemingly sub contracted out to a third party!! and never used!!] Effectively it seems what that amounts to is they were then bought and paid for, simply by accepting that cash and as was pointed out to me yesterday it is suspected that the BFBA marker has been called in!!.

PNB.

john ford
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby john ford » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:46 pm

Gentlemen, can we stop name calling and making up figures and facts to support our individual ideas, and try to discuss these issues in a professional manner. You may all at once shout out that all of a sudden John Ford is the baking pot calling the kettle black, after reading some of his previous messages and postings. But there is one major point that most of you don’t know about me. I am passionate about everything within the Farriery industry, to the extent of being boring. I talk the hind leg off a donkey to other people throughout the UK involved in Farriery, not only Farriers, but many people on various committees, and attend many meetings just to keep in touch with my college’s. The reason I am telling you this, is because I learn the true facts in many cases, and also see another person’s point of view. Many a time I have got on my high horse about a certain subject, only to find out that a certain issue couldn’t be changed due to pressure from an outside force such as Government policy.
Chris Linssner is correct with his statement that if the Farriers Registration Act 1975 were abolished it would be a travesty to our industry and to all of us, including the horse. Also we are the world leaders in the Farriery industry that is a fact.
Questions are asked about numbers and advantages of belonging to BFBA, yet at the same time refusing to become a member, how on earth can you speak with any authority or knowledge of the work that goes on at BFBA if you don’t belong or take any part in any of their events?
I am nearly 71 years old and could easily say I had more important things to spend my money on than paying a subscription to BFBA each year, but I do it for a reason. If all Farriers belonged to BFBA the Farrier’s would have more of an influence in the decisions made by those governing authorities within the industry.
Peter, I pulled out as a member of NAF&BA (Now BFBA) many years ago over a dispute I had with one particular person on the executive committee, but once I had resolve the issue, my conscience made me reinstate my membership, for the reasons I have made above.
Yes, like many I am angry with many things that are going on at the FRC, with the dictatorial attitude coming from the chair and registrar, but I do know that individual threats like my own will not change a thing, and I would be cutting off my nose to spite my face by forcing the FRC Act 1975 to be abolished.
The UKHSU which I and others established did not work. This in my opinion was because of the aggressive and personal nature of its business. The BFBA have stayed in the forefront as a negotiating body, due to its softer and professional approach and bigger membership.
I’m absolutely sure if that membership were trebled, their negotiating arm would be that much stronger to tackle the failings of the FRC, and in time hopefully turn the Farriery trade into a Profession, but first myself and others have to learn to act like professionals with a lot more professionalism in the way we debate these issues.

Chris Linssner
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Re: Are Frc for purpose

Postby Chris Linssner » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:38 pm

OK Peter
I can see where you get your information from.
From a ridiculous post from 2013 that is as untrue then as it is today.
I am going to say this for the last time.
There is or was no financial bailout to BFBA, non has ever been needed. A service was provided that cost the BFBA to provide. Yes the support for apprentices was(of course) contracted to a professional support firm. One that covered veterinary nurses as well I believe. Nobody was bought. Nothing is or was called in. The contract was not even with the FRC it was with the then NFTA so there are no markers to call in. The BFBA committee has changed personnel since then. So has the FRC and the NFTA aint there no more.

On your supposed ideal apprenticeship of the future, in what world is having to fit machine made shoes a step forward. Where in the world can you take an exam on farriery that involves fitting ready made shoes and is held in any regard. That is a backward step. I was at college in 1975 and Bill Watts made us make handmade shoes. I really don't see it.


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