Unshod horses

especially for horse owners to ask advice, from farriers or from other owners, all welcome, also please post details of lost or stolen horses here
john ford
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Postby john ford » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:35 pm

CG, I think we are both guilty of not reading each others text correctly. That said can you please tell me why you are pushing for foot trimmers to have training in any type of farriery, when farriers have all the training that is required to trim horses feet and if necessary shoe them as well, without any preference to either operation. A hoof trimmer is trying to convince a client to go barefoot before they even start a job, because that is all they can do. that in-its-self doesn't help the welfare of the horse.

Voicesforhorses
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Postby Voicesforhorses » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Hi csc

You say you think the trimming situation will be forgotten within the next fife years but if the introduction of ‘horse whispering’ to the UK and its subsequent spin offs is anything to go by the trimming fraternity is here to stay, especially when the current code of practice makes it easy for 'trimmers' to make a living!

I know it is not popular because why should things change to accommodate new age (for want of a better expression) trimmers but as JF says “A hoof trimmer is trying to convince a client to go barefoot before they even start a job.” At least with FRC training this opinion could be based on an informed and qualified decision.

Trimming is not a fad or fashion that will pass it has been growing here for a number of years and its strength lies in the fact a codes of practice has been drawn up to accommodate it! This is a cultural change. As sure as the age of the working horse changed over to the pet. So owners changed from professional horse owners to hobby horse owners. As sure as people come up with new kinds of horse shoes there will be people come up with new ways to trim. As sure as there are UK trimmers so will there be EU trimmers.

For the sake of equine welfare and in the name of all the excellent farriers on this small island of ours this code of practice has to be amended. It should not go through as it is. The Chairman of the NEWC has been quoted as saying he hopes DEFRA will incorporate it into it’s welfare code of practice. The consultation period isn’t even over yet!

VFH

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:28 pm

Evening gentlemen, I trust you are all well. All still fireing on all cylinders it appears! :lol:

Calander Girl:-

Can I ask why do you feel 'trimmers' should have to train, qualify and be regulated by a farriers organisation? when this is like requiring a chiropodist to train (apprenticeship included) as a cobbler...

let me explain (I am an Equine Podiatrist btw)...

We are not farriers, nor do we wish to be. We do not shoe horses because that is not our business (that is the business of a farrier).

Farriers are trained to make shoes and to fit them to horses feet (ask them exactly what they learn during their (admittedly long) training.

As an EP (I cannot speak for other 'trimmers') my primary concern (training and qualification) is the welfare of equines, particularly in respect of their feet. and in some instances this may even involve recomending shoeing (by a competant farrier). Farriery skills are however largely irrelivant to what I do and that is to maintain horses feet in a way that is best for them (sometimes as opposed to shoeing them, so that their owners can ride them as they wish, at a cost to the horse).

Of course anyone working with any animal (or in any profession) should be properly trained, qualified and regulated, by an appropriate organisation (personally I belong to EPAUK)... but that does not mean and associated one.

If farriers feel so threatened by us, why do they not train to do what we do, qualify and then offer both services? If they did that perhaps, rather than attacking 'barefoot trimmers' they would be reccomending, for the benifit of the horse, that more of them are left unshod and they would have the education needed to give their clients the right advice to enable this...

As things stand most farriers do not understand barefoot husbandry (because it is not covered by their training) and all they can offer is a pair of shoes....

put it this way If you had sore feet, would you go to your local cobbler? or to a foot doctor?

cheers all!

8)

PNB
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Postby PNB » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:39 pm

Jamiepeg,

Your quote,"If farriers feel so threatened by us, why do they not train to do what we do, qualify and then offer both services? If they did that perhaps, rather than attacking 'barefoot trimmers' they would be reccomending, for the benifit of the horse, that more of them are left unshod and they would have the education needed to give their clients the right advice to enable this."

Threatened by you!! TAKE A HIKE. Attacking BAREFOOTERS you do not even rate a second thought!!

PNB.

Voicesforhorses
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Postby Voicesforhorses » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:08 am

PNB – Why take this approach? What does it achieve?

jaimep
There are farriers who have taken trimming courses. Are there any trimmers who have also decided to go on and train with the FRC - so like you say, they can offer both services?

Do you think the C of P unlimitedly protests equine welfare?

Voicesforhorses
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Postby Voicesforhorses » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:13 am

Sorry that should say - protects - equine welfare

hch4971
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Postby hch4971 » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:29 am

"If farriers feel so threatened by us, why do they not train to do what we do, qualify and then offer both services? If they did that perhaps, rather than attacking 'barefoot trimmers' they would be reccomending, for the benifit of the horse, that more of them are left unshod and they would have the education needed to give their clients the right advice to enable this..."

I personally think this is rather patronising and the reason more horseowners will return to farriers whether their horses are barefoot or not. The trim my farrier gives my ponies is better than that ever given by the barefoot trimmer I used to employ, their feet are in better shape and my vet has confirmed this (mind you, he probably knows nothing about feet either unless he has trained as an EP!!). My farrier does not leave my one ridden mare footsore as the trimmer used to do every time nor has he ever suggested she need shoes yet he knows I would put shoes on her in a second if he thought it was needed. He doesn't make her sore and says she has brilliant feet that don't need shoes. My farrier doesn't lecture me either and make me feel second rate as an owner, nor think he knows more than the vet regarding feeding a laminitic pony (ie, not advising giving hard feed as trimmer advised)

You speak as though these farriers know nothing other than banging a shoe onto a foot, what a load of rubbish. Do you really think they do not know the mechanics of a horses hoof, the best way for them to be trimmed depending on whether a shoe is to be fitted or not. I find it quite insulting that you feel you can come onto a farriers forum and speak to them as though you know everything there is to know about trimming and balancing a horses foot. How dare you suggest that they need educating to give their clients advice on taking their horses barefoot. You seem to have the same problem I used have, believing our farriers to be stuck in the dark ages, this is not true as I have found, much to my ponies relief.

Im afraid I am with the farriers on this one, people like yourselves should have to take the FULL farrier apprenticeship, qualify and then choose to only trim feet if that is what you want to do. The law should be changed to stop unqualified (non-farriers) people being allowed to do anything to a horses foot unless in an emergency (in which case they should be calling a professional out anyway!).

I did the barefoot thing thinking I was doing the best for my animals I realise now that not only was I not doing the best for them but I was putting them at risk by allowing a person, who really knew nothing about what she was doing, to trim my ponies feet. I know from speaking to many other horse owners that more of us will be moving back to farriers for the welfare of our horses and I just hope that the law is changed to support this.

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:20 am

Lol! clearly my usage of the word 'threatened' has upset your macho egos! If it helps I retract it. Perhaps it would have been better to say 'are so hostile towards us'?

If not 'theatened' then why so hostile?

PNB:- You demonstrate that I/we do rate a second thought every time you respond to one of my postings...

however I do not wish to bicker.

V4h:-

There are indeed farriers who have taken 'trimming' courses. I have myself attended courses on three seperate occaisions with farriers in attendance (and I am sure there are more instances of this).

To my knowledge there is only one farrier (a good friend as it happens) who has actually qualified as an EP and... as a result of knowing what he now knows, he now very rarely applies shoes and then only when his clients make that choice despite his reccomendation (the welfare of the horse is, after all and especially with the new legislation ultimately the responsibility of the owner/carer).

I think you have missed my point...Why would an EP wish or need to "go on and train with the FRC"? We are not farriers, we do not wish to be, if we ever have need for the undoubted skills of a farrier, we would simply call one in and work with them as a para professional, just as we would with a vet, a saddle fitter, a nutritionalist, a chiropracter, a dermatologicalist, etc etc. Our work is very specific, to do it we do not need to be experts in every aspect of horsemanship (although it has to be said that most EPs are in fact expert in more than one) but we do need to know when to call the relevant expert in (which we do).

by the 'C of P' (code of practice I assume?) to what do you refer? With respect, I do hope you are not just trying to be clever!... (if I am a little sensitive please forgive me, if you read this thread from the beginning you will understand why...)

hch:- appols if I sound patronising, not my intention.

Of course there is no reason why a farrier cannot trim a barefoot hourses feet. all I am saying is that he will do it better with the appropriate training. And he simply does not get this from his farriery course.

The reason I (and many other EPs) became EPs is because we could not find a farrier who understood enough about barefoot husbandry to adequately look after our own horses. That does not mean there are not farriers out there who do not have sufficient knowledge, Giles for instance, is I believe, one of them; Cecil Swan, a notable other (I know because I have worked on the same horses as him and they have been just fine, apparently him and his mate trim a diaginal pair at the same time to save time, but that's another story!).

Just two days ago I was asked (by the owner) to comment on a horses feet that are currently being looked after by a local farrier. The feet were fine, the man was obviously doing a good job and I said so with the reccomendation that because of this she stick with him rather than becoming one of my clients (frankly I do not need any more). 'If it aint broke dont fix it'.

So yes there are (or course) farriers out there who are capable of looking after a barefoot horses feet...but... there are an awful lot more that are not, simply because they do no thave the appropriate training... if you do not believe me ask them, here and now on this board. Not how many years apprenticeship they have done, or how long they have worked as a farrier, or how many generations have they of farriers in their familys... but how much training specifically in barefoot husbandry they have had... If they have had any it will not have been part of a farriery course... The gentlemen on this thread will no doubt deny this so ask the collages which provide the courses... ask for the curriculem... ask them at what stage do they do the 'barefoot training' what does it entail and how long is spent on it and what subjects are covered?

Ask the farriers here how well do they know the foot? Do they understand the structures of the foot and what their functions are? Do they understand the effect that putting a shoe onto a foot has? etc etc...

You never know, we may all learn something.

One other point if your (untrained in barefoot management) farrier is looking after your barefoot horse and something goes wrong (or rather does not go right) what will he reccomend? advice on transitioning? nutrition? conditioning? probably not...he will reccomend puting shoes on, why? because that is all he has to offer! The horse may well go sound... but at what cost?

Of course there are poor 'trimmers' out there (a big problem for us I can assure you and one which we and farriers alike are justifiably concerned) and I am sorry that it appears you have come across one. but we (EPs) cannot be responsible for the actions of untrained and unqualified trimmers... Just ad farriers cannot be held responsible for untrained andunqualified farriers (a big problem for them at present it appears).

No horse should be left sore as a direct result of the trim, if this is the case something has been done wrong, catagorically. and that is the same for a 'trimmer' or a farrier who tells you that 'they are always sore for a few days' ...complete nonsense!

Just out of interest:- ask the farriers on this forum about the "mechanics of a horses foot" or "the best way for them to be trimmed depending on whether a shoe is to be fitted or not".

PNB
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Postby PNB » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:28 pm

Jamiepeg,

Don'y you understand, barefooters do not rate consideration in my world!!

CofP is the one that has been written for you by NEWC.


PNB.

Voicesforhorses
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Postby Voicesforhorses » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:50 pm

jaimep,

Getting back to the crux of the matter.....

Bottom line - Do you think the Code of Practice (C of P) does enough to protect equine welfare?

VFH

john ford
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Postby john ford » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:29 pm

Can I ask why do you feel 'trimmers' should have to train, qualify and be regulated by a farriers organisation? when this is like requiring a chiropodist to train (apprenticeship included) as a cobbler... :
With a comment such as that one Jaimep,You have definitnally lost the plot, as in this country people do not walk around in their bare feet, and a good Chiropodist will know alot about shoes that people wear, and would never suggest that they go barefoot unless they walked on sand or their livingroom carpet.

PNB
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Proposed NEWC code of Practice, Foot trimmers

Postby PNB » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:54 pm

Jamiepeg,

Did you not see the foot trimmers code of practice NEWC have put out for adoption regarding what foot trimmers can and can't do.

At some stage it seems the CoP will pass onto the/a Statute Book.

Are you telling me you were unaware of the NEWC document and that you have not had an input into its construction??

If you go to the NEWC web site there is a comments form to down load!!

As far as I recall the initiative was started by the Farriers Registration Council, I was personally asked at/by FRC to produce/frame recommendations, regarding the craft [farriers] views about foot trimmers. [Copy above].

It seems the ideas that UKHSU and I produced did not measure up.

The deal was handed over to another member of FRC to work with NEWC to formulate an outline Cop for bare foot trimmers!!

PNB.

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:35 pm

Jamiepeg,
Your question ask farrier on this forum about mechanics of a horses foot.
Jamiepeg all trained farriers address the horse not just the mechanics of the foot the locomotion of the horse is very important so that any trimming or shoeing is to take place will aid the horse for the better.
I have many horses that go barefoot the difference is im a trained farrier you are nothing if you are only concerned with just the foot.
You need not answer any of my points until you can get on a level playing field with me and my fellow craftsmen.

GOOD DAY.

E.W.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:02 am

Jamiepeg,

Below are two abstracts from your recent posting:-

[1], "One other point if your (untrained in barefoot management) farrier is looking after your barefoot horse and something goes wrong (or rather does not go right) what will he recommend? advice on transitioning? nutrition? conditioning? probably not...he will recommend putting shoes on, why? because that is all he has to offer! The horse may well go sound... but at what cost? ".

Comment: If a horse is sore at any stage, the only remedies that can be sought are ones that render it as soon as possible FREE FROM PAIN, "SOUND". That must be the prime objective of foot care as it relates to ANIMAL WELFARE. Follow on advice is secondary, undoubtedly a farrier will offer such, yes drawing from his training, but more so from his life experiences. In real terms it should come as part of a diognostic response which is the remit of the Veterinary who must be keep in the loop in such circumstances.

Sore, In Pain = Suffering, to do anything or give any information that doesn't have the prime objective at that moment in time to relieve such pain/suffering, avoids a duty of care to mitigate relief to the animal. A direct duty of care, is a legal responsibility under the "new" animal welfare act, and which is placed equally on the OWNER of the horse, the farrier or any untrained unqualified bloke that that has just doctored its feet!!

[2], "No horse should be left sore as a direct result of the trim, if this is the case something has been done wrong, categorically. and that is the same for a 'trimmer' or a farrier who tells you that 'they are always sore for a few days' ...complete nonsense!".

Comment, So we agree, but shit happens. Pain even often unexpected happens, very occasionally, after a specific foot has been trimmed. Not unusually as a result of a latent condition [an inflammatory one masked until trimming has altered the animals foot loading]. So tell me how can you, in the shortest time span, alleviate this suffering without the application of a shoe or other device which only a Registered Farrier can lawfully apply??

Sorry mate you are talking rubbish.

LAY Foot Trimmers can exist, and I feel they should be able too, as UKHSU and my report to FRC high lights. Ideally such an existence would only be with the complementary presence of the farrier and vet. That is until a formal indenture as a time servered Farriery Assistant has firstly been formally put in place and the operative has undertaken such training/work, satisfied by examination!! It would seem unlikely that a process similar to this would/will be undertaken by anyone as with probably a little as an additional years indenture a fully fledged farrier would appear from the chrysalis.

PNB.

Voicesforhorses
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Postby Voicesforhorses » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:32 pm

If anyone is interested in filling out a quick survey on the Code of Practice here is a link:

http://www.voicesforhorses.co.uk/survey ... -Care.html

Full results and feedback will be sent to the NEWC

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:11 pm

VforH:-

In the light of the situation/events which lead up to the decision being made to put this particular C of P together I feel it is laudable as a concept and one which I personally support fully. I must say however that I do have concerns about the detail and feel that some of the wording has not been sufficiantly well thought through in it's present form. And yes those concerns have been put to NEWC (some time ago in fact).

Does that answer your question?

PNB
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Postby PNB » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:18 pm

Jamiepeg,

Regarding your above posting, I have been asked to respond to NEWC as a member of FRC/TAC, is there anything you wish me to point out to NEWC for you??

PNB.

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:20 pm

PNB:- Considering the attitude demonstrated in your previous postings why would you ever imagine I would want you to speak on my behalf?

I have already been asked for and made my comments, thank you.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:26 am

Jamiepeg,

There you go!!

So you don't intend to demonstrate your thoughts on statutory regulation and structured training with the persons you are canvassing for trade on this UKHSU's discussion boards, one of only two UK farriers web sites open for debate, then!!

Why?? In all probability, if you were to open up and tell us what you wanted for YOURSELVES, rather than what others are prepared to give you, rather than constantly deriding farriers who do have a formal statutory course of training open to them presently. You never know foot trimmers may find considerable common ground, but who knows what is on your agenda??

Just to clear up one matter, personally I don't feel in the long term foot trimmers to be a threat to my craft, but to the the horse?? that is something else!!

The business model you are using is very doubtful. To canvas horse owners for work by decrying the craft that has looked after them and their horses for as long as records have been kept, as the primary customer collecting tool does appear to be dubious practice!!

It is ironic, you refuse olive branches of support when offered to you!! The chance of some one else who might see your view point, that is if we could find out what was wanted. Well then keep those who offer you debate on STRUCTURED TRAINING [by formal employment as farrier assistants] for you who wish to become professional foot trimmers, in the dark, GOOD STRATOGY Waller!!.

I suppose it's down to you mate in the end.

PNB.

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:41 am

?! I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to reply... (but I have 20 minutes to fill before I set off for the day).

Why so agressive Peter?

ok...

It is not "satutory regulation".

It would be totally innappropriate for me, particularly as an individual, to air my thoughts here on line. Particularly on a forum like this! Considering the reception I have recieved here, why would I!!?

That said if any individual is really that interested in my personal thoughts (I'd be flattered if they were) I'll be happy to discuss it with them one to one... jaimeexup@hotmail.com

For the record (see my previous postings) I do not "constantly deride farriers" in general (although I do state facts which some individuals it appears are uncomfortable with)... In fact I have a great appreciation and respect for the profession as I do for any skilled craftsman. Indeed where appropriate I recomend farriers to clients!

I am not canvassing anyone for trade (I do not need to!) that said I am ammused to note that following each 'exchange' I tend to recieve a few interested enquiries! If I needed to do some marketing I would come on here more often!

:grin:

PNB
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Postby PNB » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:10 pm

Jamiepeg,

Your quote, "It is not satutory regulation".

What makes you think that, what do you think this is about then??

PNB.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:29 pm

Jamiepeg,

I feel you missed this. Just for the record:

All,

The below conclusions drawn from a much larger paper submitted to Council, and summarize my [assisted by UKHSU] current feelings regarding training and regulation of Barefoot Trimmers, these were drawn from consultation with The Union's Executive Group. Regulation may well in light of EEC law prove a Two Edged Sword.

Much more, fact and comment regarding the deregulation of farriery in order to bring it within the proposed "Veterinary Services Bill" can been viewed at UKHSU.com, [click link above]

Comment here please, or to pnbaker@tiscali.co.uk

"Conclusion.

Hoof trimmers may well be manifestations of a fad which is unlikely to persist.


The role of owners has not been considered so far. Most horse owners are
sensible people who know whether their horses are comfortable or not and
who will have shoes fitted when it is to the benefit of their horses but
who are not likely to have horses shod unnecessarily.

The future may well involve horses no longer being shod with steel shoes
and nails, and it seems inevitable that eventually glued on synthetic shoes
will take over - this will present a new set of problems when it comes to
regulation. However at present these methods are expensive and not robust enough for everyday use.

It has been suggested that hoof trimmers should be properly trained in order to prevent unnecessary suffering to horses. However as they all seem to have different philosophies and methods it would be difficult to set up a training programme that would accommodate all of them.

Would it be possible to separate farriery qualifications into two stages?
an initial qualification for trimming and a further qualification for shoeing?

In any group of horses there are likely to be some who need trimming and
some who need shoeing at some stage of their lives. The knowledge and skills required are much the same. Any trimmer will encounter problems where horses are footsore and need shoes. It would not we suggest be a good idea to produce trimmers who cannot shoe.

It has been suggested that there is a need for research to demonstrate
whether it is practical to work horses without shoes. It is unlikely that any scientific evidence would sway the barefoot enthusiasts. Furthermore there are welfare implications in these experiments if horses are going to
be worked to the point of lameness. It is self evident that when horse's
hooves wear down excessively the horse will become footsore, this is the
whole rationale behind shoeing which has been practised for 2000 years for this exact reason.

A practical approach might be to create the position of a Farrier Assistant, something which many farriers have suggested, whereby an assistant would be able to carry out hoof maintenance and shoeing preparation. Either the Act could be AMMENDED to allow assistants to perform certain acts of farriery, which is suggest to be not necessary, risky and probably not a good idea, or assistants could stop short of undertaking UK defined "Acts of Farriery" [Farriers Registration Bills 1975 / 77], their duties carried out under the supervision of a qualified Farrier.

The problem is that what is an act of farriery is unclear. The FRC at present take a very inflexible interpretation of the law. It might be better to take a more lenient interpretation so that removing of shoes, preliminary trimming, shoe manufacture, shoe preparation and initial fitting can be accepted as not being acts of farriery, in accord with what is suggested was within the word and spirit of the registration bills. [Any action similar to this should include caution as it may well have / will have an effect on the need for and even reduce the gross costs of apprentice training, good or bad??. [Explanation requires a separate paper]].

[A thought. Very careful consideration of this matter needs to be given,
due to the EU non-uniformity of what is an act of farriery. The UK is ruled
by EU law, and in several areas of the EU [arid areas, areas of preponderance of barefoot use], when foot trimming is the greater part of the act of hoof maintenance / farriery carried out on equine hooves. This could complicate the EU directives regarding the 2year / 6 year rules of entry onto our register].

It is hard to make any sensible case for and it may even be dangerous to institute any formal statutory control of foot trimmers within UK farrier / veterinary legislation.

UKHSU July 2006

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:28 am

Thanks for posting that (again) Peter. I'm sure we are all familiar by now with your thoughts on the subject.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:13 am

Jamiepeg,

You personally don't have a clue!!

PNB.


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