Unshod horses

especially for horse owners to ask advice, from farriers or from other owners, all welcome, also please post details of lost or stolen horses here
csc
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Postby csc » Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:54 pm

jamiep you have again avoided the question

john ford
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Postby john ford » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:10 pm

Stewart, it is a long time since you asked the question to jaimep, and you must be aware that these salesmen/women have a very short memory, unlike many farriers. So with that I have copied your question so our person has no problem in answering it through lack of memory.

From CSE to JAIMEP:
Maybe you would like to tell what experience you have had working under supervision with a qualified person, that has qualifications that are accepted by the farriery profession.

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:13 pm

E&I. Thank you for comments. At last! perhaps we can have a rational conversation.

Yes I would agree that 'the apprenticeship (uk one I assume?) is one of the best in Europe' indeed I believe it is probably one of the best in the world, although not being involved in farriery education others such as yourself (and or the FRC) are probably better informed than I. That is why I used their quote in the first place. The quote "farriery in this country has stagnated" is also from them, again I assume they would know better than I.

I would agree with you that management should always be down to the individual horse and I repeat what I have said many times that I am not neccessarily against shoeing if that is the best thing for the horse there is no despute that putting a shoe on a hoof allows the horse to perform beyond the natural capability of the hoof at that time. It provides artifical structural support if you like, in much the same way that surgical supports or calipers provide structural support that allow performance beyond that that would be possible without them. and in the same way they restrict the natural development of the structure they are supporting (i.e it will only develop to be as strong as it has to be) which results in the structure becoming reliant on the support.

Now, if you require your horse to perform beyond its natural capabilities (which of course very from horse to horse) eg to be ridden competatively or pull a cart for several hours each day or before it has fully developed (6 - 7 years) or because its living conditions cause its hooves to be weaker than they should be etc etc then fine, I agree the only option (currently) is to shoe the horse and that is every horse owners choice. but we should be aware that this does not come with out a price and that price can include shock absorbtion, circulation, deformity, lack of traction, incorrect function, incorrect development, increased suseptability to a variety of diseases and infections, possibly even ultimately a lack of performance...etc. and we should be aware that with proper management and time allowed for the hoof to develop the vast majority of horses currently in this country can have a foot which is perfectly adequate for their owners purposes and theirs too. I am not saying that that will come with out time effort and dedication. If you want instant performance... shoe the horse.

Take your 3 year old TB racehorse for instance. Its owner wants it to be in training and winning races. It is unlikely to have the foot structure to allow this... shoe it and its feet may last for its racing career. Some would say so what what happens to the horse after that? It has served its purpose. The same could be said for a hunt horse kept at livery once it is no longer of use to its owner... please note I am not making any moral judgement here that is up to the individual owner.

My point is that today most owners want to ride their horses yes but they also want what is best for the horse and if that involves taking time and effort and perhaps altering they way they manage the animal an increasing number are prepared to take that route.

As for your horses (at the risk of daring to pass a comment)

pony 1 do you know what caused the abcess in the first place? What did your farrier say? I assume you mean the holes the farrier dug? How would a shoe prevent infection getting in? Once the holes had grown out were the shoes removed?

pony 2. we yes, she would be sore. When a farrier trims a foot he/she remove more horn than an EP would in order to prepare the foot for the shoe. Also see comments above a shod foot will be reliant on the shoe. It would be possible to develop structure in the foot but this may take six months or a year of correct transitioning depending on where you are starting from. In certain instances where the foot is too badly deformed it may take even longer and in a situation like that one has to make the decision is it fair to the horse and is the owner prepared put the time and effort in and perhaps to not ride for an extended period? Again just facts no judgement call on my part.

Yes of course stats can be adjusted. and I totally agree it very much depends on ones definition of 'in work' and this wasn't defined. I would assume a hunter or competition horse or horse that is ridden hard say five times a week. I have sat in audiences where in answer to the question who ownes a horse virtually all the hands go up. who rides? all hands stay up. Who rides more than once month? all hands stay up. more than once a week? half the hands go down. more than twice a week? another half of the remaining hands go down. more than three times a week? practically no hands left. So... I reckon those figures may be correct... an hours ride three times a week is hardly 'in work' in my book!

Low grade laminitits (sadly) was not mentioned specifically the general perception being that laminitis started at the developmental stage. There was some discussion centered around prelaminitic metabolic syndrome and its association with insulin resistance, mild hypertension and dyslipidaemia and a clear indication that their appears to be a genetic predisposition towards laminitis and that in future genetic screening tests may be developed to help identify the genes involved. It was further noted that dynamic tests (such as the insulin response in the dexamethasone suppression test, or to fructose feeding) are worthy of evaluation.

LGL is something we are seeing an alarming increase in (either it is becoming more prevalent or we are becoming better at spotting it, a combination of both I feel) but it is very early days and we have insufficient verifiable evidence to publish anything (but watch this space!). If I were suspicious of lgl ou tin the field I would be considering the general demeanour of the horse, its type, its environment, its nutrition, it's history, its condition, the overall look and feel of the foot, heat, pulses etc does that help?

Giles..!!??!! Like I have said I know we agree on most things!! In fact we first spoke about it years ago although you clearly have forgotten the convesation. Yes it has been said before by you and others I make no claim that my comments are original. I agree with you fergoddsake!! LOL!

I've never metioned a 'special trim'. and of course horse are used differently than they were before see comments above.

oh and the figures I seem to recall were quoted by Simon Curtis I dont know where he got them from but I'm sure he would let you know. They are not my figures and you are right I dont have complete faith in them as I said I just thought it was interesting thats all!

Sure farriers are looking after these horses but by your own logic you are saying that more of them would be better of with out shoes. why then are farriers continuing to shoe them? and surely if farriers are going to continue to look after them unshod (which btw I have no objection to at all) they should at least avail themselves of the best information available to manage the unshod horse and I assure you simply applying a pasture trim every 8 weeks falls very short!

There is no reason why a farrier could not do the job I do just as there is no reason I could not do the job a farrier does but obviously either would have to learn about it first ... or do you think I should pick up a hammer nails and horseshoe and start banging away?!?

I'm sorry what 'case' am I supposed to be supporting? The facts are out and often quoted by yourself!

I'm not going to rise to your baiting. (tempting as it might be!)

No I wasn't personally invited to the National Equine Forum (although I believe anyone was as long as they paid their ticket!) althoug as an organisation we were and sent four delegates. I'm surprised you didnt say hello.

I havn't seen your comments on KC's presentation but when I saw him in the evening he said that he had been unhappy with his presentation, he felt he had misjudged his audience and had not prepared as well as he might for them due to illness (it was on the cards that he might not even have been able to speak) and being extremely busy at present preparing symposiums and courses. You should understand that the Forum could not be as high as you might think on his list of priorities. It was incidental to him being in the vicinity at the time as he is currently holding a course here. None the less the talk went down well I understand the event finished at 4 but KC was unable to get away until 7:30 due to the number of people wishing to discuss it with him. I know because he was late for his dinner!

boys

I've answered your question. I do not see that working under the supervision of a qualified farrier should be essentail to what I do, however I have worked under the guidence of three separate ones. Do you want time scales? What would satisfy you? one hour ? one day? one year? five years? none I suspect, you would simply move to another attempt to belittle me. once again why?

I have answered your questions. Maybe you could answer some of mine?

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:47 pm

Giles Just read your comments on KC's presentation. Fair enough. as you know I wasn't there.

EbonynIvory
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Postby EbonynIvory » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:31 pm

Hi,

I am curious about the mild -hypertension causing laminitis, how does that work? What is "dyslipidaemia" - fat infection? Who was the speaker? What research had they done for the lecture? You mention fructose feeding are worthy of evaluation, Eps and Pollitt (2006) suggested and identified that it was not fructose but oligofructose (different structure) that is one of the causes of laminitis. I am glad that there is at least a theory that there is a gene for genetic predisposition towards laminitis, I have thought that for years. What research has been done and by who?

Pony 1, cause of infection unknown, holes were temporarly plugged and shoe put on to hold plugs in place, adjusted as holes grow out. It was either shoes or pultice for months. I am keen but not that keen! Holes are still growing out.

This is in no way ment to belittle you, but again I am curious. Why do you feel that working under the supervision of a qualifed farrier is not essentail to what you do? How do EPs get their qualifications (This is an area that I am not familar with.) Who sets and regulate the standards? And please, someone tell who this KC is and why he is so well known?

EbonynIvory
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Postby EbonynIvory » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:32 pm

jaimep, what questions do you have?

PNB
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Postby PNB » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:54 am

Jamie,

What do you actually do in order to end up with an IDEAL Foot. You requested discussion and questions so forget about the horse that is going to have a shoe fitted as a base plate, that is beyond your legal and probably your physical capability.

To start this session I suggest we concentrate on the digit of the bare foot animal that we all encounter, the young horse. I would be interested for you to start by beginning with the home bred type one alien to man, with its asymmetric bilateral flares and a bad attitude due to fear of anyone that wishes to hold onto its leg.

If we cover this area as the first segment of an ongoing debate, you may even find we all actually all do the same job in a similar way, WHO KNOWS??

I am still quite worried that you don't appear to have had any significent supervised training, so would be interested to find out what unsupervised skill level you have accrued to enable you to practice commercially.

Don't worry too much being self taught may not be detrimental this can be done, a kind of life long skill research project not constrained by historical thinking. When this route is taken it may be found refreshing to undertake some form of public mentoring if only to satisfy niggling little doubts if one's processes truely optimises the equine needs. Surely any one would need to check self taught skills against established protocols and not purely the theoretical need.

PNB.

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Postby jaimep » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:25 pm

E&I

I'm not saying that anyone was suggesting that hypertension causes laminitis but that some of the inflammatory and vaso active cascades seen in laminitis are similar to those found in hypertension and/or insulin resistance. Hypertension might be a potential phenotypical characteristic and part of the picture in insulin resistance and laminitis, not a causative. and hypertension in a horse suffering laminitis could simply be due to pain.

Dyslipidaemia is abnormal lipid levels - can be either too high or too low. normally. Ldl or hdl's.

The speakers who mentioned this were:-

Jonathan Elliot MA VetMB PhD CertSAC DECVPT MRCVS
RVC Uni of London, NW1 OTU
(Presenting for Simon Bailey BVMS Phd DipECVPT MRCVS, now at Uni of Melborne),

Pat Harris Ma PhD DipECVCN VetMB MRCVS.
Equine Studies Group Waltham Centre for Pet Nutrition
Waltham-on-the –Wolds
Melton Mowbray Leics
LE14 4RT


They would be better placed to provide you information about the research they have carried out and I’m sure they would help if you are genuinely interested (I don’t mean that to sound sensitive or churlish).

Nicola Menzies-Gow MA VetMB Phd Dip ECEIM CertEM MRCVS
RVC North Mymms, Herts, AL9 7TA

May also be able to provide information pertaining to field and epidemiological studies.

What is the difference in structure between a fructose and an oligofructose? How does this difference influence the likelihood of laminitis developing? Has Pollit produced a paper on this? I looked through some of his work last night but could find no reference to it.

I feel that working under the supervision of a farrier is not essential to what I do because, as I have already said, a farriers training and knowledge (as defined in the Farriers Registration Act 1975 before anyone accuses me of not knowing what I am talking about) pertains to ‘any work in connection with the preparation or treatment of the foot of a horse for the immediate reception of a shoe thereon, the fitting by nailing or otherwise of a shoe to the foot or the finishing off of such work to the
foot’.

As I have said I am not in the business of putting shoes on horses, if I feel that is required I would recommend a good farrier who will hopefully have a more enlightened attitude than that so far demonstrated on this thread. I trust and believe that those that have commented are not necessarily representative of the majority of farriers out there.

That said clearly there can be drawn some parallels in what we do, we are after all both working with horses feet and I value any kind of education particularly if it can make my job more efficacious. That is precisely why as I have said I have spent time both working with and observing farriers at work.

Can I refer you to two sites www.epauk.org and www.equinepodiatry.net
Which should provide you with the information you require. If not please get back to me.

You seem very well informed E&I are you a farrier?

“my questions” are those are those that remain unanswered by JF csc and pnb above.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

PNB I am well aware of the legal restrictions associated with farriery and thankfully I am perfectly physically capable, why would you suggest I am not?

I’m not quite sure what you are asking me Peter but if you are asking how would I approach the animal the first thing I should say is that I am not an animal trainer or behaviouralist and as such it is not my job to train it to pick up its foot or to overcome it’s fear of humans and I’m sure most farriers would agree with me in that. As you well know you could (should?) spend many hours trying to even get near the animal you have described let alone work on it’s feet. I often do not have the time or inclination to do this.

However if it is your intention to test my horse handling skills if the animal were mine I would have been teaching it to be handled from an early age using the usual low adrenaline positive/negative reinforcement techniques. That said I am not a great fan of imprint training as I feel this can confuse an animal as to its origins and status and whilst it may flatter the ego of some to have their horse follow them around like a puppy dog or perform circus tricks I prefer my own to be horses first, and respected subservients second. We are however getting way off topic…

Clearly we don’t do the same job as you put shoes on and I take them off but yes I agree of course there are parallels (see above). And I am not so arrogant that I am not prepared to listen, and possibly learn, from anyone as I have clearly demonstrated.

I’m not worried, and I’m not purely self taught. But I look forward to being refreshed! What was the answer you were looking for? How would you approach the animal in question?

john ford
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Postby john ford » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:38 pm

Jaimep, the more you waffle on the more you give the impression you know very little. I believe you must be a Jehovah Witness in your spare time as they take little bits out of a written text and make it sound completely different and opposite from what it was meant to. Also the longer words you use to impress puts me in mind of many veterinary surgeons I have come across in my time. That being the difference between a veterinary surgeon and a farrier, is that a farrier doesn’t believe he’s a veterinary surgeon. Now sunshine where do you fit in to this, when all you do is take off shoes like veterinary surgeons? Because the best farriers are the ones with a very high PRACTICAL knowledge and a very high PRACTICAL THEORY knowledge, which they use everyday unlike yourself.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:30 pm

Jamie,

So you only work on pre-trained horses then. Today the expertise of JOE public to train horses to stand and be handled by a farrier ain't there any longer, the Old Cartermen are all gone now, so where is this expertise going to come from?? I will tell you either from the man dealing with the animal's feet or from the needle of the veterinary surgeon.

So I think we have established you don't work on young inexperienced equines, come up with any explanation of how you handle home bred types of young equines and we will conceed we are wrong on this point.

You say you have new thoughts on hoof trimming well to trim a hoof the first thing you need is to hold the animal still in order to work on it. All basic stuff really if you really do the job you say you do on a commercial basis!!

PNB.

PS, I am asking the questions here, if you need farriers to tell you how we do it just ask!!

john ford
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Postby john ford » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:14 pm

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems that this Jaimep only qualified as a EP this year 2007?

PNB
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Postby PNB » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:58 am

Jamie,

Your Quote, "Low grade laminitits (sadly) was not mentioned specifically the general perception being that laminitis started at the developmental stage. There was some discussion centered around prelaminitic metabolic syndrome and its association with insulin resistance, mild hypertension and dyslipidaemia and a clear indication that their appears to be a genetic predisposition towards laminitis and that in future genetic screening tests may be developed to help identify the genes involved. It was further noted that dynamic tests (such as the insulin response in the dexamethasone suppression test, or to fructose feeding) are worthy of evaluation".

"LGL is something we are seeing an alarming increase in (either it is becoming more prevalent or we are becoming better at spotting it, a combination of both I feel) but it is very early days and we have insufficient verifiable evidence to publish anything (but watch this space!). If I were suspicious of lgl ou tin the field I would be considering the general demeanour of the horse, its type, its environment, its nutrition, it's history, its condition, the overall look and feel of the foot, heat, pulses etc does that help? ".

I agree but we do a practical job trimming horses feet SHOES or NONE. We need to know about the theory fine if that is what makes you buzz research the subject and the fads and facts, but what good in real terms of earning a living is it going to do!! We need knowledge of SCIENCE but don't need to be scientists working with the best brains in the world producing papers on the relative descriptions of plant sugars that induce a seasonal equine illness.

As I said the Old Carters are all gone now, If we need to educate our clients regarding how to avoid Laminitis it has to be a common sense approach like avoiding FAT PONY Syndrome, restricting spring grass in susceptible animals. Frost, Hairy Coats, Road Hammer, Packing Mud, Abraded Soles, Suitable Shoe Application to traumatised feet, Good Hygiene, Cold Water, Unsuitable Diet, I dare say this list will be extended if you choose to develop it!! When it comes down to the technician the man that looks to the horses feet its a common sense approach you need mate not chapter and verse of the latest chemical reactions to what in the majority of cases is a condition which can be avoided by a good standard of basic husbandry.

The animal welfare act 2007 is going to help us here, Equine Owners now will need a knowledge of how to treat, feed and care for their animals as they are under threat of legal sanction should they fail to provide or have knowledge of how to provide this. In real terms if an owner now allows an animal to get LAMINITIS through ignorance neglect or poor management they break the law!! A DUTY OF CARE TO THE HORSE no less. A suitable level of knowledge of care and actual caring skills will have to be similarly observed by the persons looking after Equine Feet if they wish to avoid the courts and legal sanction when things go wrong.

PNB.

slowhand
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Postby slowhand » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:02 am

Yep! LUNATICS taking over the asylum!!! :drinking: I go away to relax and come back to all this stress! :grab:

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:49 am

PNB I think you must have misread my post. I said;

“I would – teach the animal to stand - using the usual low adrenaline positive/negative reinforcement techniques”

Do you need me to explain what I mean by this?
I also said;

“we don’t do the same job - but yes I agree, of course there are parallels”

“I am not so arrogant that I am not prepared to listen, and possibly learn, from anyone” “How would you approach the animal in question?”

Please, I am genuinely interested and will be very happy to learn something from you.

I am glad that we agree (your words this time)

“we do a practical job trimming horses feet SHOES or NONE.” And “We need to know about the theory” and “We need knowledge of SCIENCE”

and of course “we don’t need to be scientists working with the best brains in the world” can’t do any harm though surely?

I’m not sure I would dismiss laminitis as a mere “seasonal equine illness” (although of course it has seasonal peaks). Apart from colic, it causes more equine deaths than anything else.

Your comment “ what good in real terms of earning a living is it going to do!!” speaks volumes.

I totally agree with you that “we need to educate our clients regarding how to avoid Laminitis it has to be a common sense approach” and indeed you are correct in your prediction that I am currently developing exactly this approach as I am sure we all agree prevention is better than cure.

I would appreciate your (or any informed) input. How would you identify a potential laminitic? What advice would you give its owner?

And of course I agree that the language and level it is presented at is appropriate, otherwise it will not be understood. That is exactly why I elevated the level of discussion in response to E&I’s comments i.e. they clearly required (and were capable of following) a more detailed conversation.

And I agree with you about your comments relating to the animal welfare act.

So, yes, we have much common ground. I accept that you (and others) have considerable experience and I will be pleased to learn anything I can from you.

Surely we should be working together for the common good of the horse?

PNB
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Postby PNB » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:15 pm

Jamie,

Your quote,[ PLEASE TELL US ABOUT THIS, OR IS IT just PRETTY WORDS!!], "I would – teach the animal to stand - using the usual low adrenaline positive/negative reinforcement techniques". Jamie, I was charged with constructing a report on what is a reasonable level of force in order to shoe a horse, tell me if this is the same. [Draft of report is posted on the UKHSU web site].

Low grade laminitis, its on a parallel with being pregnant either it suffers from an acute attack of laminitis or it doesn't. Dependent on the causative factor and the level and speed at which laminitis is dealt with by the farrier / vet determines if the CHRONIC stage is low grade or otherwise.

Laminitis is a very serious illness never the less, I doubt that it can ever be cured, proper husbandry enables equines to live with the condition in relative comfort.

Which animals are susceptible?? If it is an Equine its susceptible period. The initial causative event / condition with the exception of a few of the more complex laminitic secondary effects [ie retentive placenta, pituitary tumor, other toxemia and excess support of an injury] I personally feel is wholly predictable and thus preventable the susceptibility of the equine is but a very minor factor.

Working together for the common good of the horse, fine, that is as it refers to the animal's owner. I still need to be shown that bare foot trimmers have sufficent practical supervised background experience to serve the best needs of the horse however. By avoiding, no evading answering straight forwards questions your case is not being helped!!

PNB.

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Postby john ford » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:50 pm

So sorry to bring the subject up again Jaimep but you avoided answering my query as to my information of you only qualifying as an EP this year of 2007. I ask the question because even the brightness apprentice after 4years 2 months would never stand up to educate their peers until they have had a number of years practicing.

EbonynIvory
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Postby EbonynIvory » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:13 pm

Peter,

I don't mean to be thick or anything but what do you mean by

"Low grade laminitis, its on a parallel with being pregnant"

Confused! Surely if you are pregnant, once the foal/baby has been born, your not pregnant any more? Once a equine has laminitis, its always suseptable. Or have I miss understood?

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Blar Blar

Postby Giles » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:31 am

Ebonyivory,
I would have thought you would have asked Jamep about this what with all his technobabble, but then perhaps not, as all you would get in reply is more technobabble. His presentations remind me of KC’s talk the other day at The Royal Society, probably a case of the apprentice following the master

PNB
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Postby PNB » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:56 am

E&I,

There is no such thing as being a tiny bit pregnant you either are or are not, thats the parallel I was making. A horse doesn't get a tiny bit of LAMINITIS it either has it or it don't.

From my experiences, once it has an acute phase of laminitis, it always has laminitis it doesn't get cured laminitis gets accommodated by good husbandry. I suppose the same applies to body changes related to pregnancy, now I think about it.

I further suggest there is no such thing as LOW GRADE LAMINITIS the animal has LAMINITIS or it doesn't it is the physiological trigger that can be graded!! Higher Post Laminitic Susceptibilities are a permanent effect of an acute attack, when an animal has suffered a laminitic crises it will always be susceptible to another if exciting circumstances arise, seemingly it doesn't have to be the same sets of circumstances.

Broodmares who retain are afterwards susceptible to dietary change, the risks I suppose can become LOW GRADE yet super efficient management is from that point onward an essential to both keep the animal from experiencing another acute attack and to keep it on its feet. These feet which lose efficiency of their previous laminal connection.

After an acute crises there becomes an essential / necessity for high grade foot maintenance. I think that is what the RSPCA / Strasser court hearings were about last summer.

PNB.

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BULL

Postby Giles » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:37 am

EI,
I think all these high blown hypotheses miss one important point, and that is that the conditions for laminitis of whatever sort is owner induced. There is one condition that is required for the onset of laminitis whatever sort you are talking about, and that is obesity. Over fed, over indulged, under exercised animals. When you have one or all of these conditions then all that is needed is a stress trigger (Holtom 1976) and there are a multitude of variations on this theme.

So not having the above conditions is a way of not having Laminitis whatever the stress trigger is. Having babies, trotting on roads, drinking cold water etc. etc. Are all natural things that animals indulge in without harm, PROVIDED the management of the animal is such that its bodily fitness and well-being is not compromised. The actual mechanics of laminitis while interesting is of no importance if the conditions which trigger the problem are not there. SO no fancy foods, no inducement to over eat, no opportunity to over eat, and most of all an opportunity to exercise itself at the very least.

If the conditions are not there to cause stress then it doesn’t happen no matter what the high blown theories say.
Good equine management is all that is required by an owner, and bad management is the basic cause of laminitis always, so if it gets it, it is the major requirement in its treatment, whatever shoes, barefoot, style or trim is recommended, without animal management they will do nothing no matter what the protagonists say.

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Postby jaimep » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:05 pm

PNB

I cannot find your article Peter, could you provide a link for it please?

Lgl cannot be acute or cronic but perhaps you do not understand my terminology. By LGL I should perhaps more precisely say subclinical laminitis.

Demonstrates well my point about the need for language being appropriate to whom one is conversing. To discuss something like laminitis in detail one needs precision but if the words are not understood they may be misinterpreted as ‘technobabble’.

Your equation of laminitis to pregnancy is ridiculous.

You may be interested to view, http://www.animed.co.uk/eq_dept/lamin.htm

Which question do you feel I have evaded? I will try to elaborate.


John

You said ‘correct me if I’m wrong’ not confirm that I am right.

When where and how I finally qualified is a matter of fact that is openly and readily available to anyone by simply googleing my name. I achieved my final qualification in January this year, a fact of which I am proud not ashamed. Why then so triumphant? There are many professionals in many fields who never achieve full qualification but that does not mean they are not capable of doing their job or of having an opinion on some aspect of it...or do you believe otherwise? If so as a farrier with such limited training yourself you are on very thin ice. Could you tell us when, where and with which organisation you qualified?

It is not my intention to try to educate anyone, least of all ‘my peers’.

Giles

If your theory is correct why in a herd of say 100 horses all kept in the same conditions by the same owner will only a few develop Laminitis? That’s not too high blown a question is it?

Giles
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gobble degook

Postby Giles » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:31 pm

James,
If you don’t know then I can see no point in trying to explain, by the length of your postings you should have plenty of time to work it out. Perhaps it is being a public servant that allows you to pontificate, all the time in the world instead of working for your money.

Don’t forget as you point out I do know you from before, on my site. I notice you don’t go near it now with your foolish drivel, doing your usual attempt to prove your intellectual superiority over others. You have to do it some way as you can’t in the actual treatment of the horse’s feet. Perhaps one day you realize that reading about it is not the same as doing it. As it is you are a waste of space and working peoples time.

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:32 pm

The point is you maybe able to enlighten me! or perhaps to prove me wrong which I'm sure would delight you if you could!

I see you have discovered google! Obviously not only do I write poetry and swim a bit but I touch type as well. :lol:

I go on your site frequently!

Giles
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Gobledegook

Postby Giles » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:47 pm

Jpeg,
Ah, but which do you do well. So far you have not shown any aptitude for study, logic or common sense, but then common sense is not very common, at least not in your case. Work it out for yourself, and then you may be able to claim some sort of kudos

Giles
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gobbledegook

Postby Giles » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:51 pm

I see you have discovered google! Obviously not only do I write poetry and swim a bit but I touch type as well.

No connections that can see, Touch type, swim,poetry google ?

I go on your site frequently!

But you do not venture your hand at posting on it ( thank god )

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:21 pm

LOL! why would I? Much as I enjoy our conversations, I respect your personal space. However I appreciate the invitation.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:44 pm

Jamie,

You seem hell bent on staunching this facility, you have a huge oppertunity to both share and draw down data from men who have worked with equines all their lives, and specifically horses feet.

Your crass stupidity and adversarial approach to hard working craftsmen who are willing to communicate with sudo hoof carers defies logic. I will suggest you either utilise this brilliant facility for the benefit of the equine, something unique to farriers who can't shoe horses, or take up SEX AND TRAVEL.

PNB.

Ps. Try UKHSU News letters!!

Giles
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Gobbledegook

Postby Giles » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:54 pm

Jpeg,
You call that an invitation ? No wonder you have aproblem understanding things.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:03 pm

Jamie,

Regarding you highlighted link. http://www.animed.co.uk/eq_dept/lamin.htm

All casual readers please note, it is advisable to note it's final paragraph:-

Quote " Please note that we in the practice may not agree with all the information on these pages!"

Jamie, I accord with the author [we], especially regarding the section, LOW GRADE LAMINITIS, to a worker in this specific field, this clearly describes the CHRONIC CONDITION LAMINITIS, as you must be fully aware you being a field qualified professional foot trimmer. If you don't understand the CHRONIC condition LAMINITIS, I suggest you work with some one who does, or else you are going to end up with a negligence conviction similar to those handed down last your to the STRASSERITES. All good case history for the new animal welfare act.

PNB.
Last edited by PNB on Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:15 pm

It seems Jaimep that I am not the only one on these boards that has had just about enough of you. Peter’s last suggestion was the best advice that you should take up straight away. Also take this advice as well on your travels. After an apprentice has qualified in farriery after 4 years 2 months, his real apprenticeship in the trade has just started. He or she may ask many questions of their elders and peers, and from the different advice handed out for free by them, will shut their mouths and experiment different ways from that advice in order to gain the highest level possible. Whilst going through this very long stage in learning, just remember that in order to get respect from others you never try and take on or put done your elders and peers, unless you want to end up a looser. At 61 after 36 years in farriery, I am still learning my trade, but not from ignorant people like you who have had a couple of years reading books and still not understanding a thing about the whole picture of farriery, bare foot or not.

slowhand
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Postby slowhand » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:32 pm

I think you are all being wound up here boy's! This person, male or female, knows just which buttons to press. Let's just look at the plain facts...ANYONE can trim a horses hoof and I know of 3 owners who do. ANYONE can set up as a hoof trimmer for gain or reward. I was speaking to a cattle hoof trimmer recently who was changing to horses because he could make more money for a lot less work and farmers are tight with their brass , always pay by cheque and want receipts!! horse owners pay cash. This chap had gone on a course in Scotland and was ' fully qualified' to 'do horses at £40 a pop' his words. He asked how much I charged for a 'field trim' and I had to admit that I don't do 'field trims' in fact so many trimmers are active near me that I rarely trim. One bloke has polo shirts with his logo on and drives a brand new twin cab Nissan pick up and when he is booked for a yard all the ladies turn up with various equines and he trims about 20 at £40 each, not bad for half a day! I was informed by a lady owner that the trimmer ' had diagnosed Navicular and was working with my vet to cure it' I have lost a fair few shoeing clients to a trimmer but when a couple of them wanted shoes on again I told them to find another mug! It would appear from my experience that vets are happy to consult these people, who are adament that they can sort out any hoof problems and they do talk in very technical terms which really sways the horseowner. The horseowners all seem to be of a certain type though..FEMALE..FAT...FORTYPLUS....The horseowners from HELL!!!

Giles
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gobbledegook

Postby Giles » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:16 am

Slowhand, All,
Of course this is a wind up, by what is in effect a foolish child playing, except this one is an idiotic grown up. He /she/shim has done this before on my site, and as I could edit it got short shrift. The only thing go do is to show them up for what they are fools who take advantage of less than knowledgeable owners. This must be obvious to all in that they charge exorbitant prices for what is after all a badly applied trim by an ignorant practitioner with less than satisfactory training and experience. This person is on the UK register of the barefoot brigade, which must give you some inkling of their standards and training. We talk about owners who are easily lead and taken advantage of, well these so called EP’s are also in the group of less than knowledgeable easily lead fools. But I think you must all understand THEY DON’T KNOW THAT THEY ARE FOOLS, AND THE THEORIES THEY SPOUT MEAN NOTHING WITHOUT PRCTICE AND EXPERIENCE, sad isn’t it. The people taking their money to train them know. Then they go out and follow the example of their guru and rob others who don’t know, but like them think they do. The words phrasing and approach is an exact copy of KC in his/her/shims case, which is to belittle and denigrate anyone else including their customers ( sorry, clients) as they and KC don’t realize how little they in fact know But long words will I suppose impress the ignorant. Try “Paradigm “ that’s the latest one for KC to copy as you can see he does in all aspect on his website. He lifts bits strait out of books and publishes it as his. But please be kind to Jpeg, HE doesn’t know that he is a fool,and been mislead by a master, perhaps one day, but don’t hold your breath.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:02 pm

Giles,

NEWC are at present putting together data with an intent to make bare foot trimming subject to legislation!!

Please don't shut these guys up, this site is closely monitored by the groups proposing the statutory register therefore by the method of a by notice board public skills / knowledge test, which effectively is being undertaken by Jamie's postings to the horses mouth and Farrier-Giles, a detailed over view is being recorded to demonstrate a need for legislation or otherwise!!

So my request is you keep winding the broth until it gels.

PNB.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:05 pm

Well guys and dolls, if they do bring these people on to a register making bare foot trimming a legal professional business through the back door. I for one will be the first person to stop paying my registration fee and that is a promise. These people either take a two year apprenticeship in our present system without being taught to shoe horses before being allowed on to a special register, or they stay out in the cold.

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:39 pm

PNB

As I say I welcome the opportunity to "share and draw down data from men who have worked with equines all their lives" I am eager to learn from you anything I can. Unfortunately so far we have heard little from you (or your peers) but purile remarks intended to either inflame or deride. One can only assume you are so far out of your depth that you have nothing more to contribute...

You said "there is no such thing as LOW GRADE LAMINITIS!" you now say "I accord with the author, especially regarding the section, LOW GRADE LAMINITIS". Which is it?

Why can you people not understand that we make not pretence to be or wish to be farriers? We most certainly are not "farriers who can't shoe horses" if you believe that, you simply do not understand.

John

It appears you are indeed "still learning your trade" I hear the horse you mention previousy has been lame since you shod it!

Giles

You have never edited any of my postings on your site and we have never entered into any such discussion before as can easily be verified by anyone...

Which words have I used (apart from when quoting) that are exact copies of anything?

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Postby Giles » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:53 pm

(quote) >You have never edited any of my postings on your site and we have never entered into any such discussion before as can easily be verified by anyone...

Jpeg,
The reason they are not there is because I edited them, and that is the reason they cannot be verified. I wish you would get your brain in gear. Talking about brains, have you managed to work out why some horses don’t get Laminitis when kept under the dame conditions as some that do?

(quote)>Which words have I used (apart from when quoting) that are exact copies of anything?

I don’t see that this requires an answer; we all know and can make our own judgment. I’m sure you also know, of course if you don’t then it would account for a lot of things.

For gods sake get a life. and stop showing yourself for what you are.

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:39 pm

ROFLOL! You and your 'mates' don't appear to have convincing answers for anything !

Enough already! I'm bored of this nonsense. I will only respond in future to sensible, civil, and hopefully informed, comments.

If any of you want to take up your personal vendettas you have my contact details, by all means use them. Or Giles, I'm happy to meet up for a pint (with I assure you no animosity) next time I'm down in Wales (which is often).

with all due respect... :wink:

PNB
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Postby PNB » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:58 pm

Giles,

That seems to be the end of that communication medium.

WAS IT SOMETHING I SAID??

PNB.

Giles
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Gobbledegook

Postby Giles » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:05 pm

With Due Respect????

If you want to play mind games you must get a better memory

Giles
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Mumbo Jumbo

Postby Giles » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:14 pm

PS. Justine has my number and knows where I live. About 9 miles from her.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:29 pm

Jaimep, you have just made the biggest cardinal sin in the farriery profession, and on top of that made up a complete fabricated lie to try and enhance your credibility. I mentioned one horse on this board that I had shod and also mentioned the owner’s name who is a barefoot trimmer, so this can be the only horse you know that I have shod, which you have stated has been lame ever since. Unfortunately for you, your lies have found you out as I have seen the horse and owner today, with the owner as happy as Larry because the horse is going so well. Unless I see an apology on this board within the next 48 hours, as I have found out when you qualified, I will also within the next 30 days find out where you live as well. You can draw your own conclusions of what will happen next when we meet in court.

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:51 pm

PNB

Not at all but as I said "I will only respond in future to sensible, civil, and hopefully informed, comments".


Giles

My offer of a pint was intended as as an offer of truce, not a challenge.


John

I'm not a farrier. Why would you go out again to see a horse you shod only ten days ago?

As I say "I hear the horse -has been lame since you shod it" If that is incorrect then fair enough, I appologise.

Giles
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gobbledegook

Postby Giles » Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:59 pm

Quote>Giles

My offer of a pint was intended as as an offer of truce, not a challenge. >

What challenge ? I have told you how to contact me. That is not a challenge in my book.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:40 pm

I accept your apologies Jaimep even if it was an after thought. But again you have proved to everyone that you are as thick as a short plank. Did you know that some horse owners have more than one horse in this world, and they don't all get shod or trimmed on the same day. You heard nothing laddie and just fabricated the whole thing. Just remember never to revile who you are when or if I am in the same venue, unless that is you want to be gelded.

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:01 pm

John

Give me a chance! I havn't appologised yet! :lol:

However you are due one, as it turns out the information I was given was incorrect and I had been misled. Sorry about that, I really should have checked my source before posting.

I was wrong and I appologise. :oops:

slowhand
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Postby slowhand » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:16 pm

I have just arrived home after a hard day in the forge.... then the 'GEORGE' ......and whilst running a bath thought I'd log on!!! BLOODY HELL!You boys are being taken for a proper ride by this jaimepcharacter. Who cares what this person does and let me tell you that when a register of foot trimmers is set up jaimepwill be at the forefront of it. I have been a horseman and farrier all my life and during that time I have seen 'experts' come and go. So calm down and don't take things to heart because all of us have clients who will readily admit that they are 'experts' when it comes to horseflesh and horsemanship and only today I had a client in the forge with a new horse who informed me that her previous equine ..a 15 hands black and white cob which she had "sold for an unbelievable sum and was now working towards intermediate eventing" is a typical example of the idiots that populate the horseworld and to dig a deeper hole she said that she was " getting it back shortly to run in the local point to point" as she had " always wanted to ride in one" 18 stone and deluded!! So don't waste time on these dreamers and pour a nice G&T and think yourself lucky that in the real world of the horse you have been examined by the officers of one of the oldest Livery Companies of LONDON and have a qualification which hails you as the best in the world in your field, bar none, and as someone who travels abroad on a regular basis I can speak with authority that farriers qualified to Worshipfull Company of Farriers standards are the envy of the world. So remember that when someone who cannot be you [ but would like to be ] starts talking shite just smile :)

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:32 pm

SLOWHAND,


Very well put, i will second that and join you for a drink.

Regards,

E.W.

cliff barnes
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Postby cliff barnes » Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:20 pm

jamiep

The Farriery act of this country was bought in to being to protect the equines of this country from being harmed by untrained practitioners. Unfortunately when the act was passed it had no ability for change to the wording to be able to continue protecting equines from untrained practitioners due to changes in the industry and the use of equines.

In the last few years some unscrupulous people have abused the wording of the original act to find what can only be described as a back door into farriery. It has been proven with the destruction of equines that these back door farriers do not have the ability or understanding of the modern equine to be able to service their hoof needs.

I have on several occasions tried to discuss with " barefoot trimmers" the whys and wherefores of the differances between what is seen as two very different jobs.

The differences between us are this;
Farriers are trained over a period of 4years to trim the equine hoof with extensive knowledge of the internal structures with the potential of applying a shoe if the hoof or the work of the equine dictates it.

The barefoot trimmer is trained in a couple of months to trim a hoof.

I would by no means tar all with the same brush, and iam sure that there are those who are trying to increase thier personal knowledge.

It is a huge shame that there is no way that the present act can be altered in the foreseeable future, DEFRA are struggling to get the parlimentary time to alter the vetinary act, so unless we decide to go forward within the vetinary act it seems unlikely that we will be able to close this unfortunate loophole within the farriery act.

If you trully feel as strongly as you say you do then why not train to become a qulified farrier

Yours patiently

Cliff Barnes

PNB
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Posting transfered

Postby PNB » Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:38 am

Cliff,
Last edited by PNB on Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:01 am, edited 3 times in total.

PNB
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Posting transfered

Postby PNB » Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:12 am

QUOTE


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