Unshod horses

especially for horse owners to ask advice, from farriers or from other owners, all welcome, also please post details of lost or stolen horses here
Nicobobinous

Unshod horses

Postby Nicobobinous » Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:14 am

Dear farriers and owners!

I need some advice about my horse's feet. I've had him for 7 months and he was unshod when he arrived, and had been for some time as he had no nail holes evident on his feet. His feet were lovely and hard and supple. I had him shod after about a month and he has been shod 4 times at 6 week intervals since.
I live in an areas where farriers are very hard to come by and it's a case of take what you can get or nothing at all. The one I have doesn't seem to be terrific and now I am hearing worrying stories about him.
Also, when my horse arrived he galloped about the place and moved in a very free way which, in retrospect, he hasn't done since he was shod. I don't know if it's the way he's shod or what, but he doesn't like being shod AT ALL and he is normally a very placid horse.
Now I'm wondering why I had him shod in the first place, he hardly does any roadwork and never out of walk and he had no problems on any ground when he had no shoes.
What I want to do is to have his shoes taken off altogether and get him back to his natural state, but I'm not sure what effect the 6 months or so of shoeing will have - how long is he likely to be footsore for, and how often should be be trimmed? He grows a lot of foot and his feet are still healthy (though not as wonderful as when he arrived). Also should I put any particular product on to maintain hardness, or just an ordinary moisture giving preparation?
I think I have to try him unshod because surely no shoes is better than badly put on shoes.
Please help, thanks!

PNBaker

Unshod.

Postby PNBaker » Sun Aug 25, 2002 6:29 am

Nico,

If your horse can meet your requirements unshod then why the hell shoe him. Sadly many horses can't. My clients are advised to use their horses bare foot if the animal can stand it, on every occasion. I just happen to feel barefoot is better for the animal than an extended shoeing cycle due to shoes not being changed in time as they weren't worn out.

He may take a few days to get accustomed to being bare foot again though. If he doesn't get used to it re-shoe him. Bare foot horses generally maintain their own feet with only minor tidying up needed occasionally, that is provided the horse is doing sufficient work to wear its own feet away. Your own farrier is the best person to advise you, if he is as busy as you think he will probably be delighted not to have to fit another set of shoes that day.

PNB.

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Postby admin » Sun Aug 25, 2002 8:29 pm

I agree with Peter, he should be fine without shoes, going on what you say, and the fact that he has been shod won't have made it difficult to revert to being barefoot.

Use moisturising dressings when conditions are dry, but use waterproofing oils when conditions are wet.

Good luck,

Martin.

guest

barefoot

Postby guest » Mon Sep 23, 2002 1:42 pm

There are now many non-farriers out there to help and advise you on barefoot trimming. In my experience farriers are not prepared to accept that [u]most[/u] horses are perfectly capable of going barefoot.

Have a look at KC La Pierres website.

You should need to trim about once every 3-4 weeks or so.

It is best not to apply products to your horses feet, you shouldn't need them.

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Postby admin » Fri Sep 27, 2002 9:17 pm

As two farriers have just advised the horse in question to go barefoot that's a bit of a silly thing to say.

Martin.

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Barefoot at 18 years?

Postby uibhistach » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:11 pm

My horse is 18 years old and has always been shod but due to problems getting a farrier in my area I am wondering if it would be fair to work her unshod. At most we cover 10 miles of road each week but my worry is more when on gravel and shingle as she is obviously tender then. Usually she is bare-foot over winter but she doesn't do much work then. Any advice would be gratefully received.

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Postby jaimep » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:54 pm

Can I ask why did you have him shod in the first place if his feet were “lovely hard and supple” unshod? Especially if he was moving well had “no problems on any ground” and he doesn’t like being shod at all?

The six months of being shod will have had a detrimental effect (even farriers recommend taking the shoes off for a period to let the feet recover) on his feet but it should be easily recoverable. It does depend on the individual though.

He should not be footsore at all unless there is some pathology or infection present. If there is we can treat that.

If I’m taking shoes off I usually like to go back four weeks later just to make sure everything is ok. From then on it depends on the rate of hoof growth but generally every five to six weeks. N.B. it may not be necessary to trim on every occasion but there may well be other areas (such as nutrition or conditioning) that need attention to (especially if the horn is not growing for instance).

I do not recommend any products to maintain hardness. That comes from inside and from the correct conditioning. Most products are a waste of money some are harmful.

Yes no shoes is better than badly put on shoes maybe better than well put on shoes too it depends on the horse and the circumstances. In your case it sounds as if he will be just fine unshod.

Going unshod is not however the easy option and you cannot just take the shoes off and hope for the best.

You will need to take careful consideration of the management of the horse and adjust its environment so that it is optimal for him to go barefoot. This is often simple but you must know what you are doing or be guided by a professional with experience of such things. There will be a transitional period during which time you may not be able to ride but will need to condition and stimulate the hoofs to ensure that they are healthy and robust again you need to know what you are doing as it is easy to over do it which will cause problems.

Once the horse has a sound foot underneath him it is not just a case of “wearing the foot away with enough work” as the hoof needs to be correctly balanced and any potential problems dealt with appropriately.


Uibhistach :- yes your horse can go barefoot see the above. You will need to condition correctly an to get the environment correct.


If you wish I can give you details of your nearest Equine podiatrist who should be able to help.

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Postby john ford » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:46 pm

Keep talking crap like that sir with as little knowledge of the equine as you have and you will find yourself in some court trying to get out of a bigger hole than the one you are already digging now.

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Postby jaimep » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:43 pm

what exactly do you take issue with john?

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Postby john ford » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:54 pm

I take issue with any person who thinks he/she can give advice on an animal they have not seen. Especially when you make comments on hardening hooves bare foot or not, and virtually telling a horse owner they are better off without shoes. Yet again without seeing the animal in question.

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Postby jaimep » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:00 pm

have you seen the animal John?

csc
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Postby csc » Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:23 am

lets face it bare foot trimers seem to have a habit of cripling horses as they lack experience ,
and the knowledge they recive is mainly from unexperienced people with a degree from the good old u.s.a for a weeks course and a tenner

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Postby jaimep » Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:26 pm

So you take issue with everyone who has responded John? On this topic and every other one where people have not seen the horse? So why attack me specifically? Because I am not a farrier?

I agree with you that it is unwise to give specific advice without seeing the animal in question, That is precisely why I offered to provide details of the nearest EP, so they could go out and have a look.

Nicobobinus has asked for opinions and I have given mine based on the information given, as have others (with whom you do not seem to take issue despite them too suggesting the horse in question should be fine unshod). My response is general and based on my experience of exactly this aspect of hoof and horse care. As it is what I specialise in I felt it appropriate to comment. Surely you can accept that I have experience of “hardening hooves barefoot” after all that is what I do!

Yes I do believe (from the information given) that this horse would be better off without shoes, as do others who have commented.

Do you believe this horse would be better off shod? If so why exactly? I am always open to education.

Csc. Yes I agree with you, lack of experience (in any field) can be dangerous. As indeed can ignorance, I have been called out to help horses suffering from the work of some very experienced but misguided trimmers, I am sure you are aware of the ‘school’ to which I refer.

I am not aware of any degree that is available in barefoot trimming and certainly no “weeks courses for a tenner” from any country. Sounds cheap!

Let me be very clear that I am not against shoeing, if it is appropriate and if it is I would call upon the expertise of a farrier. I suspect that most of you would agree that not all horses in all situations need to be shod (as in this case) but that if the horse is to be unshod it should be managed in an appropriate fashion and guidance sought from someone with an appropriate education and knowledge.

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Postby csc » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:25 pm

jamiep my remark for a tener was sarcastic it is a well known fact that in america qualifications are easily to come by after short courses however there is one in farriery equivelent to ours in the states
i have been in this game for over 30 years and have seen many fads come and go and come back in a newer form, as far as working horses are concerened they need shoes .
in the winter some only shoe in the front for arena polo this works if the horses are only used in the arena one used in other work on hard surfaces the horse becomes foot sore barefoot triming is only good for horses at grass and i have never seen a working horse sound without shoes.

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Postby jaimep » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:41 pm

Csc Indeed it was! And my response was intended in good humour as I hope it was received. Of course a £10 week long course is worth…exactly what its worth!

I believe you can simply buy qualifications in America (or even over the internet) but again they are worth, exactly what they are worth.

I thought American Farriers did not need to qualify to the same standards as in the UK or is that a typo & what you are saying?

“as far as working horses are concerened they need shoes” not all of them surely? In any case how many horses in this country can really be described as ‘working’ when the majority are domestic pets who are ridden at weekends only.

Btw I have worked on several unshod polo ponies and know many hard working riding school horses all of whom do just fine. And you must be aware of the likes of Saucy Night etc? I can give many examples if you are genuinly interested.

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Postby john ford » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:41 pm

Jaimep, there is one thing that you barefoot trimmers never take on board nor take the time to understand. With mans intervention in breeding horses, the wild horses that many of you bare foot trimmers refer to are never ridden or fed or even handled. The domestic horse as we have today with so much inter/crossbreeding is far removed from the wild horse in its conformation and body weight. A horseshoe is placed on the foot not only to protect wear on those feet which are prone to abrasion, but is used more as a final support to the joints and limbs above. Many horses have severe conformation deformities and if they are left to work unshod the side most prone to impact from uneven weight forces will wear that part of the hoof away or in extreme cases, cause a shunting of the hoof capsule, which in turn places strain on joints, ligaments, tendons above. Therefore the shoe when fitted correctly to the descending weight forces will out way your so called skills as a plain hoof trimmer, because you can’t rasp off something that isn’t there, yet we farriers can and do place a foundation where it is needed. Finally, when you and others comment on poor shoeing I can show you a thousand great jobs of shoeing, as like any industry there are good and bad, but be prepared to pay a high price for the good?

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Postby jaimep » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:57 pm

John. I agree with you totally that a wild horse has a very different foot to a ‘bred’ horse. And domestication is an entirely unnatural way of life for the horse.

How does the shoe “support the joints and limbs above?”

In certain instances where there are “severe conformational deformities” you may well be right that some form of remedial shoeing could help.

Is the correct trimming and balancing of a hoof not a ‘skill’ ? regardless of who is doing it?

I don’t think I have made any comments on poor shoeing but yes I think we all agree there is good and bad out there.

Could you answer my previous question John. Do you think the horse above should be shod?

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Postby john ford » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:50 pm

Jaimep, I can’t answer the question as to whether the horse in question should or should not be shod, as I have not seen the horse nor know exactly what it is doing work wise on a day to day basis
Support is always better explained on a practical level with dozens of horses in front of you. So to a person who needs their first lesson in support and what descending weight can do when applied I will ask you to carry out this very simple test. Take a six sided stiff cardboard box, (a cigarette box will suffice) Place even pressure across the top and you will find that the whole box will expand or spread out evenly at the base. Now place pressure on just one side of the box and watch what happens, you will find that it doesn’t just spread out or expand on one side, it will bend in the middle in the opposite direction, for every action there is a re-action. Remember there is a lot more to add to this subject than this, something like a lifetime in farriery, but it’s a start for a beginner.
Again until you understand the biology of the hoof structure you will never fully understand the importance of support and balance. If the horn tubules are not correctly supported the whole structure of the foot collapse’s, hence cracks and weak walls to name a couple.
I do not like the phrase remedial shoeing used whilst talking about the mature horse, correct shoeing and trimming is all that is required, most of these phrases are used to baffle one in paying another £100. Remedial shoeing or trimming is carried out in the first 3 months of a horses life, after that it becomes correct shoeing for the individual horse.

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Postby jaimep » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:21 am

but surely you can have an opinion John? After all you appear to have formed an instantanious and very strong one about me without having ever met or knowing absolutely anything about me! I would suggest that you resist answering because you agree with me and indeed the other farriers who have made the same comment that, based on the information given, the horse would be better off unshod. Or perhaps not? If the latter is the case could you please explain to the other farriers why you think they are wrong? Or at least have the consistency to attack them for passing comment as you did me.

For the sake of sensible discussion I will not rise to your condescending remarks. However...

I assume your six sided stiff cardboard cigarette box (?) represents the hoof capsule?

Firstly if you place even pressure across the top you will in fact find that the box is surprisingly strong up to a point when it will collapse not by expanding at the base but by the walls giving way at their weakest point (usually in the middle). Try it.

Not that the experiment is relivant as I know very few horses who place an even vertical force directly down on their foot.

I agree that if you place pressure on the side of the box the collapse will happen in an unbalanced way.

If what you are trying to say is that the application of a shoe prevents the hoof capsule distorting in the way that god designed, i.e. it to absorb shock and thus protect the joints and limb above...then I would agree with you.

Your analogy doesnt work John and if you believe that a six sided cigarette box can represent a hoof capsule it is you that needs to go back to your anatomy class. A hoof is generally conical, the walls are not of an even thickness or a geometrically perfect shape, there is a sole,(and indeed all the other associated structures of the foot which influence the distortion) etc etc clearly even at a cursery glance it is a totally different structure to your ciggy box. In addition the forces in the foot are clearly not placed directly on top of the 'box' as they pass down the pastern into the pedal bone and are transmitted to the hoof capsule via the laminae.

Yes there is a lot more to this subject. I am interested to hear what more you have to say... genuinly.

I believe the term remedial shoeing is used by farriers. I take it to mean shoeing to rectify a fault.

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Gobledy Gook

Postby Giles » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:22 pm

Back to your old tricks I see Jamie. By the don’t pretend you are so naïve with Stuart, you know after all what a bought degree is, your mentor KC has one does he not. You carefully avoided saying what you do at Warwick. Perhaps you are at the uni, also you make fun of other bare footers with a string of letters after their names, but then so do you. Three lots, what do they mean if anything, or don’t you like to admit that they were made up by one man for his band.

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Postby jaimep » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:01 pm

Good afternoon Giles! a beautiful day so it is!

My old tricks? I thought the implication was that I hadn’t been around very long? How then can I have ‘old tricks?’

I believe KC (LaPierre I assume) has a PHD not a degree and how he acquired it is public knowledge and his business not mine. All my qualifications are genuine and well earned in time, effort and application.

I misunderstood your question when you asked me what I was doing in Warwick. I assumed from your previous answers that you had already made a presumption about what I do for a living. I am an Equine Podiatrist and it is some 20 or more years since I was at university!

As you know I don’t usually put letters after my name, I did in that instance as a bit of ‘sport’ to show that we could all do that (as I know you could) and I hoped with an element of ironic humour. Surely you don’t think my RAC, AA, MAD, Bad, SAD was intended to be taken seriously? The rest are genuine (there are even more should I choose) and no they certainly do not come from one man. If you really want to know what they stand for I will be happy to let you know, but I suspect you do not or if I did you would merely take it as an opportunity to make some derogatory comment.

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Postby Italian stallion » Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:17 pm

Giles & John,

Farriers consult with vets and fellow farriers in there daily work,
so i must ask, why would the organ grinder bother to speak to the
monkey, this monkey is clever with words so why entertain he/she.


From one farrier to another have a nice day.

Regards

E.W.

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Postby jaimep » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:36 pm

In other words if you are clearly loosing an argument, you should withdraw from it? If so why start it in the first place?

I suspect Giles & John enjoy the joust as much as I do I.S. but if they have no further retort I am more than happy!

Respect to all.

:wink:

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BOG TROTTER

Postby Giles » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:28 pm

Jaimie,
Your sarcasm is not up to your usual standard, so now your Irish, probably a bog trotter.

You imply that you have been an EP for 20 years, but we know that is not true, as KC has only been around for about 6 years, and if his PhD is not genuine ( which it isn’t ) then what does that tell us about the rest of his claims ? You say all your qualifications are genuine.

“Jaime Hickman, Warwick England UK (DAEP MIIEP MEPUK) - Email: jaimeexup @ hotmail.com - Telephone: 07811188842
I'm a qualified Equine Podiatrist (KC La Pierre). I hold a diploma and a Degree in Equine Podiatry and am a member of the International Institute of Equine Podiatry and the Equine podiatry association UK. I live in Warwick England UK and cover the Midlands and south West England areas. (02/07) “

I take you are the person above, perhaps you can tell us what all these genuine qualifications are. Who gave them, and when. What university gave you the degree ? and which college the diploma ? as you have pointed out all you have to do to be a member is pay your dues ( like the RAC and AA ) so I take it that you have paid money to put MIEP, and MEPUK after your name. So where is the qualification that you have worked so hard for.

I take it that these qualifications are intend to be taken seriously, and I suppose impress those that don’t know better, I think your inferiority complex is showing.

I have heard that Justine and Allen have fallen out with KC, so who does Wales now ?

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Postby jaimep » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:04 pm

och for god sake! Enough already. Read the posts... clearly I am not trying to impress with my qualifications!!! but merely to illustrate a point! I am well aware that they would not impress or indeed be understood on such a board as this.

If you must know my degree is from Greenwich university and my post graduate diploma from Manchester not that that is particularly relivant.

As you well know KC is not the only Equine podiatrist in the world (and in fact he has been around for 51 years, 15 of which he worked as a farrier, the last 9 of which he has been developing his method, indeed you should know for a fact that he would state that he does not teach equine podiatry. I'm afraid you are only showing your ignorance or perhaps just trying to provoke. I know you know better.

I'm sorry but I see little point in continueing this point scoring...(si I will stop whilst I am ahead) I had hoped to have a stimulating conversation about horses hooves!

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MUMBO JUMBO

Postby Giles » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:22 am

Och, Jaimie,
Gone from Ireland to Scotland now. You clearly don’t impress with your qualifications as they are not relevant as you admit, at last. So why tell us that you have a degree and diploma when they are a waste of time as far as horses are concerned. The others on you mini CV also have very little relevance as they have awarded and bought from a proven charlatan.

We all know that KC is not the only bare foot guru who uses big words ( equine podiatrist ) do hide their lack of knowledge and experience from some deluded horse owners. The fact that he is 51 years old has no relevance to how long he has been doing bare foot trimming ( and it shows ) as far as the UK is concerned I am being generous in saying he has been around for 6 years, so I wonder how long you have been involved.

Stimulating conversation is the last thing you want, but rather a place to air your badly researched and lack of experience with horses feet. You have done this before in other places as we know, so you don’t fool us and hopefully the poor punters and their even poorer animals

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Postby jaimep » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:33 am

yawn. whatever. (does that make me an American now?)

we could go on forever G. but I see little point an d I'm sure it is of no interest to others. Pm, phone or email me if you wish to continue your vendetta...

I have simply answered your questions as best and genuinely as I can but you insist in your efforts to belittle me. Why? To what end?

matbe i will take Italian Stallions advice and turn the other cheek.

I am sure you will always insist on having the last say.

lets tak about hooves. Please, if I know as little as you suggest I will soon be exposed.... or do you feel threatened?

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Postby john ford » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:16 pm

Jaimep, never think for one second that we farriers feel threatened by you lot of amateurs. Why we attack you as we do, is because you are a big threat to our clients the horse owner who know very little and are taken in very easily with bull****. They can’t answer back, but as professionals we will, in order to protect them and their horses, long before our own personal interests.

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Postby jaimep » Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:59 pm

I guess you can only speak for your own clients John, mine tend to be very well informed, knowledgeable horse owners who are most certainly not taken in at all easily by bull****.

If you say you do not feel threatened then I accept that but why then do you post in such a defensive and unprofessional manner?

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Postby csc » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:29 am

jamiep your first postings were of a keen refreshing manor towards bare foot triming naw you are in a slaging of match
however hard you try to convince farriers of your good intentions you will fail as we as farriers all know that it is just a fad and will not work on working horses ,years of experience tells us this.
and farriers will not accept you

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Postby jaimep » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:02 pm

csc Thanks. and you are right about the slagging off match although I hope I have managed to resisted the temptation of descending to their level (after all that would be too easy!).

I make no attempt to "convince farriers of my good intentions", they simply exist. I have no doubt that there will always be farriers who refuse to accept facts and further their knowledge especially if this entails acknowledging their limitations and that they may not have got everything right and indeed therefore threatens their livelyhood. What I cannot understand is why they cannot engage in a sensible debate about horses hooves when presumably they do know something about them. I would value it. Indeed I may learn something.

What I also fail to understand is why such characters as Giles (if I may use you as an example G.) post with such an apparently 'anti barefoot' attitude when I know for a fact that he has spent considerable time with the likes of KC (with whom he actually agrees on most points of barefoot trimming and husbandry) and has in the past given me similar advice and encouragement in keeping my own horses barefoot!

Perhaps I am very naive but I do like to see he best in people rather than looking for darker motives...

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Postby john ford » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:32 pm

Jaimep, today I went to a new client to shoe her daughter’s new potential 4yr old eventer. The mother is a bare foot trimmer taught and qualified with KC. She had my respect straight away when she told me that she only use’s her limited experience on her old cob which she hacks around the farm, but felt it wrong to go out and trim other people’s horses. She also asked if I minded checking her cobs feet from time to time just in case they needed a more experienced eye on the subject.
She was fascinated to know that her daughter’s new horse had off set knees which had never been taught by KC.
With the above in mind, why on earth are you so called bare foot trimmers, having the neck to hide behind a qualification that wouldn’t even be given out to a 3rd year apprentice, and then have the gall to think that we farriers have a lot to learn from you.

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Postby csc » Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:22 am

jamiep i thought that i clarified the situation barefoot trimmers are not a threat to farriery as barefoot trimming does not work on any horse,. in serious work.
the happy hacker that ventures out once a week might get away with it.
forddy has a good point in that the farriery education standards in the uk are one of the best in the world ,and that after a four year apprentiship people are just starting to get experience .that being the key word .
barefoot trimmers do not have that education or most importantly that experience and it is that lack of experience we as farriers see.
maybe you would like to tell what experience you have had working under supervision with a qualified person, that has qualifications that are accepted by the farriery profession.

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Postby jaimep » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:33 am

You guys! i get it! Your'e just trying to wind me up arnt you!? :wink:

John:- Great story, good for you, good for her... but erm... So what?

btw I'm not sure to whom you refer, we are still a fairly small group of people and I know most, if not all of the qualified EP's and there is not one in your catchment area that fits your description. I can't imagine why anyone would put the time and effort in to qualify just to trim their own horse and if they had even attended a lecture by KC they would soon learn that he specifically dislikes the term 'barefoot trimmer', accordingly it is one we do not use. So, to whom do you refer?

There is not a single EP who "hides behind a qualification" our work speaks for itself... and obviously such a qualification wouldn't be given to a 3rd year apprentice... why would you possibly imagine it could? That would be as ridiculous as me suggesting I am qualified to teach anatomy and conformation.

Back to one of my questions to you which remain unanswered John. Do you believe the farriers that have posted answers above are wrong or wrong to do so?

john ford
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Postby john ford » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:40 pm

Jaemep, This was a new client who has just moved to my area in the name of Mrs Norris. If you don’t know enough about anatomy and conformation, may I ask why the heck you know enough to trim even a donkey, as these two basics are the main requirements to trim or shoe any horse.
I don’t have an answer for you as to other farriers comments on these boards, as I answer posts as an individual as do most others, although as you can see when it comes to you unqualified and mainly ignorant people on the complete understanding of the farriery industry against our knowledge of the subject, we do in most cases agree.

csc
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Postby csc » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:42 am

jamiep you have avoided my question

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:11 pm

I havn't avoided your question csc. I simply havn't had time to read your post yet... hold on..

Csc Voicing an opinion is hardly a clarification. However I have already
said that, as you say so, I accept that you (farriers) 'do not feel
threatened' which leaves yet another unanswered question i.e. 'why then do you post in such a defensive and aggressive manner?' Especially as you consistently fail to substantiate your points or to engage in any useful
debate about equine feet. Surely you should relish such an opportunity? If only to demonstrate your superiour knowledge... Why then descend to the slagging match?

As regards "barefoot trimming" not being a threat to farriery, you may well be right. I assume you know the difference between that and what I
practice? It is precisely why we differentiate ourselves from 'barefoot trimmers'.


Why would a 'barefoot trimmer' (or indeed an equine podiatrist) need an education or experience working under a qualified farrier?

Experience education and knowledge are not the same thing. I believe I am quoting an emminant farrier with the saying 'you do the same thing you get the same result'

PNB
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Postby PNB » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:39 pm

Jamie,

I have kept out of this till now. Are you saying that you haven't had any work experience working under a FORMALLY qualified equine foot expert, for example in the UK a registered farrier?? If this is the case where did you get your practical experience.

PNB.

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Postby jaimep » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:46 pm

John

Mrs Norris is not a qualified EP. She has attended one course as a responsible and dedicated owner interested in finding out more about what was happening with her horses feet. This is something that we encourage all our clients to do as it ensures a better understanding of what we do and of the importance of the owners role in the management of the horse and its environment in between the EP’s visits. Checkmate?

I would (genuinely) be very interested to know what you thought of the cobs feet. If you would be so kind…
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do you insist on twisting my words? I wrote

“That would be as ridiculous as me suggesting I am qualified to teach anatomy and conformation.”

Not

“you (I) don’t know enough about anatomy and conformation”

Do you believe that one needs to be qualified to teach anatomy and conformation in order to work on a horses (or donkey’s) foot? If so you are saying 99% of your fellow farriers should not be working which is clearly nonsense!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So we all agree that the horse which is the original topic of this thread is very likely to be better off unshod. Thank you for that at least, Phew! But isn’t that what I said in the first place that you took such great exception to? : )

----------------------------



Peter

No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying

“Why would a 'barefoot trimmer' (or indeed an equine podiatrist) need an education or experience working under a qualified farrier?”

----------------------------------------------

csc If I may pick up on something you mention...

"forddy has a good point in that the farriery education standards in the uk are one of the best in the world ,and that after a four year apprentiship people are just starting to get experience"

By being the only country with regulation, the UK leads the world in the basic standards of farriery. However this does not necessarily carry through to research and development of new techniques. As other countries introduce legislation this may alter the relative position of the UK.

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Postby john ford » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:05 pm

Jaimep, I have nearly just about had enough of you, but before I leave this debate I want you to now list the difference between the following. STRASSER: EQUINE PODIETREST: BAREFOOT TRIMMING.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:07 pm

Jamie,

WHAT A SLIPPERY EEL YOU ARE!! Where did you get your practical experience from then mate??

Theory is great, but in order to work and sell yourself to a base of clients you must surely feel you need a prolonged practical education in a supervised capacity.

So where / how did you get this practical experience?? did you just go out and buy an apron, pair of gloves, rasp , knife and a pair of nippers, then go to Office World and print up some business cards. That is how you are selling yourself, which without doubt could not be the case.

PNB.

csc
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Postby csc » Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:55 am

jamiep it is quite obvious you have little or no practical experince there are many that talk a good talk and in farriery like all other avenues of the modern world there are bulshitters and con artists trying to sell there product with a slippery tounge this will not change as as ther are many gulible persons i am sure you will do quite well

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:30 pm

Thank you John. I'm sorry, I thought you should already have known the difference. This would perhaps explain some of your comments and attitudes.

Strasser:- Dr strasser is the originator of a now discreditied approach to equine barefoot management. We catagorically distance ourselves from this approach.

Equine podiatrist:- A person qualified in the management and maintenance of the equine foot based on an understanding of it's correct structure and function and the influences environment has upon it.

Barefoot trimming:- generic discription (often used by the layperson) of trimming barefeet.

PNB:- I have no need to "sell myself to a base of clients" and make no effort to do so.

As a student EP I had the benifit of working under the guidance of three different farriers, four different Equine Podiatrists and a vet.

csc

I am not or make any claim to be a farrier. I am sure you are right when you say,

" in farriery like all other avenues of the modern world there are bulshitters and con artists trying to sell there product with a slippery tounge"

after all you would know better than I.

Thankfully there are no bulls***ters or con artists amongst the EPs.

Gentlemen. Please, this is becoming silly and is I am sure of no interest to the original poster of this thread or to others.

I have no objection to farriery when it is appropriate and indeed will work with a farrier if it is. I have no inclination to become a farrier or any training in shoeing or indeed in preparing a horses foot for a shoe. I do however have training in the management of the shoeless horse, an area in which I do believe many farriers are not expert. Why would they be?

csc
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Postby csc » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:04 am

jamiep you still avoided the question what experience do you have? and who have you worked with that is qualified as a farrier or vet
unless you have a answer mate i am sorry but you will be classed in the bulshitter league

PNB
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Postby PNB » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:57 am

CSC,

"WORKING WITH" is one thing, working under "THE SUPERVISION OF" is another!!

It relates to those that hold themselves up as an "EQUINE PODIATRIST TRAINERs" that have never undertaken supervised close contact training in a protracted day to day context themselves.

PNB.

EbonynIvory
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Postby EbonynIvory » Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:30 pm

Well, all I can say is, for a bunch of blokes, you fight like women!!

Jaimep - 'you do the same thing you get the same result' is not the correct quote. Try:

"If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got"

I am sorry for having to do this as you are having a hard time off this lot but I am forced to correct you on your statement below:

"By being the only country with regulation, the UK leads the world in the basic standards of farriery. However this does not necessarily carry through to research and development of new techniques. As other countries introduce legislation this may alter the relative position of the UK."

We are not the only counrty with regulation. There is a rather large orgaisation called the "European Federation of Farriers Association" which has been in operation since 2004. It aims to promote the art of farriery within the Eurpoe regardless of EC membership through education and inter-country exchange.

However, I do agree with you that the UK leads the way for standards and training as we do have the best apprenticeship scheme.

I am trying to decide if Nicobobinous has had an answer!

E&I.

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Postby jaimep » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:55 am

csc lol bull***ter or not I've had the better of you at every stage of this 'conversation'. Frankly I'm not interested in your twisted bigoted opinion. It is clear to all that you have no logical or intelligent argument all you have demonstrated is your ignorance, arrogance, and that your only motivation in this is to be offensive. Well you've failed in that too!

PNB you're right. I used the expression 'under the guidance of' which is essentiallly the same thing.

Not sure what you are trying to say in your second paragraph. what ever Like csc's comments I'm sure it is intended to cause offence.

OK boys, enough of your purile nit picking efforts. I won't entertain them any longer, it has served my purpose.

If you wish to debate equine feet I'm happy to take you on head to head. I hope we may even share some common ground. Either way we will soon see who does or doesnt know what they are talking about.

I feel reasonably secure, afterall so far you havnt demonstrated much knowledge regardless of how every many years 'experience' you may have. If you just want to be offensive and make inaine derogatory remarks I'm sure there must be chat room sites that cater for such perversions.

EbonynIvory:- Thank you for your corrections, but if I may...

Why do you assume I am a man (or are you adressing the others? if so yes I agree they fight like girls!)

I was quoting (admittedly a little tongue in cheek) an emminent farrier with that and yes he did not put it as elequently as the original, similar meaning though.

As for the second quote I'm sure you are right, just as I'm sure you know that those words I used are direct from the FRC. I think what they were inferring is an acceptence that farriery in this country has stagnated (day to day your average farriers today is doing exactly what his father and grandfather did with little exception) that although standards in this country are often sited as 'the best in the world' this is misleading as it is only by comparison with either very low or no standards.

In order to advance any science people need to be open to new ideas and advances...

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Postby jaimep » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:53 am

Clearly Nicobobinus has had an answer consistently the consensus of those who have dared to voice an opinion is that from the evidence given the horse would be better off unshod. I would add , as long as it recieves proper care and management.

I was fortunate enough to attend the International conference on laminitis at the RVC earlier today. There were some interesting and relevent statistics quoted relating to horses 'in work' (which I think it was csc who insisted need to be shod). Apparently they make up a mere 8% of horses in the uk, so does that mean that 92% do not need to be shod as they are not 'in work'? In the US it is even less... only 2% of their horses can be described as being 'in work'.

Did you know we now have more horses in this country now than at any time in the past? and unlike the past 92% of them are domestic animals whos lifestyle is very different to that of the working animals we originally developed farriery for... doesnt it make you think that maybe we need to manage them differently?

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Postby EbonynIvory » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:08 am

The Apprenticeship is one of the best in Europe and if you had any idea of what the apprentices have to learn you would not be saying: "farriery in this country has stagnated." Not only is the technology and techniques moving on continuously but as I explained we are the not the only contry with standards. That is the whole purpose of the EFFA, I thought I made that clear.

As for manageing the "working horse" differently. I feel that it is down to the individual horse on how it is managed. I have two horses:

Pony 1 - still in work (light - med) at the age of 30, compeate at dressage. She was unshod for 8 years untill last summer when she had puss in a front foot. My farrier dug it out and put shoes on the front. She then had go faster strips on and I was the only one who cold ride her for a while! She needed the shoes to stop the holes from filling with mud and becomming infected again untill they grew out.

Pony 2 - in hard work, compete at dressage, SJ and cross country. Fully shod, she lost a shoe yesterday and after being riden on grass for an hour is foot sore.

The point is Pony 1 can cope with no shoes, Pony 2 can't.

My other point about these stats is that they can be "adjusted!" If you ask most horse owners "is your horse in work?" Most will say yes. Was there any definition on the stats given to you?

What was said about (if anything) about the identification of low grade laminitis?

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Some trueth admitted

Postby Giles » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:21 am

At last admittance that the reason behind being able to go without shoes is not because there is a special trim, BUT because horses are used differently than they were before. They are used less, with less hard work, by owners who use that as an adjunct to there social standing. This has all been said before Jaimie, both by me and others, but you have seemingly just noticed it. It must be terrible to have to admit to something that does not support the propaganda that you sow in the less knowledgeable owners minds in order to support your position in the foot care world. Now we are getting somewhere boys, at last they are supporting what we have said all along, “The less you use a horse, the less need there is of shoes”
Your use of statistics to bolster your badly supported case I think shows how deep your hole that you are digging has become. 92% of horses without shoes? You should ask yourself, who looks after their feet, not you or people like you, it is farriers and has been for a long, long time. Of course these figures you quote have been gathered by whom? I suggest not those involved in trimming or even farriery directly, just like the rest of the research which has not been checked or substantiated by their peers yet. But you will accept it as it substantiates your case. We as farriers know that there are and have been more horses in this country than in the pas. It is only you and the person who put out the paper that didn’t evidently, and of course we know they are used differently, you of course shoes not to admit this until now as the reason that less need shoes as a percentage, but because of the increase in horse more in total need shoes, don’t you think, or is the increase only in unshod horses? These figures that you quote are only a guestimate taken from a very small sample. I know you are in the business of fooling owners but please don’t make statements of fact, that are not, very foolish of you. By the way I see you use the word apparently when quoting the figures, which implies that even you do not have complete trust in them if any.
Your statement that CSC has no logical or intelligent argument also applies to you when people read your posting on here, with the very curious lack of real facts and substance to support your case, and the constant changes in approach to suit your case. In fact your ranting sound more like a little boy who has had his lolly pop or ball taken away. You keep on about talking about discussing feet, but fail to do so, either in statements or questions. You are here to cause trouble and promote your case for shoeless horses, which I might add you have signally failed to do so, as that facet of hoof care has been in the public domain for thousands of years. Unfortunately people like you are all theory and no do, the theories are all other peoples and those are taken up with gusto as long as they support your case. Even those of KC are mostly plagiarisms. Those that denigrate theories that you have assumed as yours you ignore. Any practical work either supervised (Laughable) or not is miniscule and even 500 hours which is not even full time, seem to be the standard is less than a good holiday. By the way what is the standard accepted by you now that KC has disowned you? What are you going to do for training without your guru and leader?
By the way like you I was fortunate enough to attend the National Equine Symposium. At the Royal Society on Thursday by invitation, were you invited? I had the dubious pleasure of listening to KC’s presentation which you will be able to see it on my site, though I have posted my thoughts already. Now Jaime, take your ball or whatever and go and play with someone that you have a chance of impressing with you self applied qualifications.


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