TRAINING REQUIREMENTS BAREFOOT TRIMMING.

especially for horse owners to ask advice, from farriers or from other owners, all welcome, also please post details of lost or stolen horses here
PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

TRAINING REQUIREMENTS BAREFOOT TRIMMING.

Postby PNB » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:50 am

What are training requirements for non farrier hoof trimmers??

Cliff following a suggestion from one of UKHSU's members this subject he feels is sufficently important to start a thread on its own!!
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Cliff Barnes
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 34

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:20 pm Post subject:

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jamiep

The Farriery act of this country was bought in to being to protect the equines of this country from being harmed by untrained practitioners. Unfortunately when the act was passed it had no ability for change to the wording to be able to continue protecting equines from untrained practitioners due to changes in the industry and the use of equines.

In the last few years some unscrupulous people have abused the wording of the original act to find what can only be described as a back door into farriery. It has been proven with the destruction of equines that these back door farriers do not have the ability or understanding of the modern equine to be able to service their hoof needs.

I have on several occasions tried to discuss with " barefoot trimmers" the whys and wherefores of the differances between what is seen as two very different jobs.

The differences between us are this;
Farriers are trained over a period of 4years to trim the equine hoof with extensive knowledge of the internal structures with the potential of applying a shoe if the hoof or the work of the equine dictates it.

The barefoot trimmer is trained in a couple of months to trim a hoof.

I would by no means tar all with the same brush, and iam sure that there are those who are trying to increase thier personal knowledge.

It is a huge shame that there is no way that the present act can be altered in the foreseeable future, DEFRA are struggling to get the parlimentary time to alter the vetinary act, so unless we decide to go forward within the vetinary act it seems unlikely that we will be able to close this unfortunate loophole within the farriery act.

If you trully feel as strongly as you say you do then why not train to become a qulified farrier

Yours patiently

Cliff Barnes

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PNB
Joined: 23 Jun 2002
Posts: 704
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:38 am Post subject:

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Cliff,

Are barefoot trimmers a problem in your area?? Do you actually have experience of seeing their work?? The only ones we have up here in the South Midlands area [N/Wilts - W/Berks] are the ones that have a worn out rasp, discarded by a farrier, usually me and simply trim broken edges and safe off risen clinches of feet with overgrown shoes to prevent injury until the farrier arrives.

Is a statutory register of foot trimmers going to assist horses avoid injuries effected by this basic foot care or help my clients or even stop this practice among horse owners. It seems to me this could be a sledge hammer to break a nut, [a fad]. The new welfare act will make foot care on a regular basis OBLIGATORY under fear of action by the courts, it will make both operative and clients responsible before the action of delivery of farriery / footcare, it will be a statutory obligation to arrange competent foot care for animals.

I was asked to prepare a paper for the FRC on this subject which was presented in 2006 as the product of UKHSU.

Another organisation not farriers but one called NEWC, [run a goggle search] which seems to be most if not all of the Animal Charities working with a member of FRC, Councilor House a Veterinary Surgeon. Two reports have been presented at council by NEWC. UKHSU have asked to be incorporated into NEWCs membership for the foot care debate as the representative of the working craft. It seems we are not to be included in the formation process.

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AN HISTORICAL NEWC DRAFT DOCUMENT.

NEWC BAREFOOT TRIMMING SUB-COMMITTEE -Initial Report


Contents

1. Introduction- The Philosophy of Shoeing and Barefoot Trimming
2. Regulation
3. Education
4. Provision of Farriery and Barefoot Trimming Services
5. Research


1.Introduction

Consideration of the Philosophy Behind Shoeing and Barefoot Trimming

Conventional shoeing of horses has a long history dating back at least 2000 years. The reasons behind shoeing were likely to allow horses to be used on paved roads or similar, thereby increasing their usefulness by avoiding lameness because of excessive hoof wear. Historically, horses had been shod with strap-on devices (hipposandals in the Roman era and other similar devices dating from before this period) but for almost all of the last 2000 years (and likely before) shoes have been nailed onto the insensitive part of a horse’s hoof. In the last ten years modern acrylics and adhesives have developed to the point where stick-on shoes have become feasible to use; this has also resulted in great developments in the ability of farriers and veterinary surgeons to manage veterinary medical conditions of the horse’s foot and limbs.

Notwithstanding the above, many populations of horses have been managed both historically and in modern times without shoes. From a social perspective, the last twenty years has seen an increase in the use of horses exclusively in riding arenas and it is true today that some horses are never exercised other than on artificial surfaces. Such sports as dressage are essentially now all carried on soft surfaces. Perhaps coincidentally, there has been an upsurge in interest in managing horses without conventional shoes, i.e. barefoot.

Some advocates of using horses barefoot suggest that shoeing is unnecessary and leads to medical problems such as poor circulation and chronic low grade lameness in many cases. There is little scientific data to support such assertions (and indeed some to contradict) although there seems little doubt that poorly shod horses, particularly with overgrown feet and ill-fitting shoes are likely to be made lame. Similarly poorly managed unshod horses will likely suffer significant lameness problems. Advocates of the technique suggest that horses may be used for all purposes unshod although perhaps more realistically this is qualified by others who recommend the use of protective devices such as strap-on hoofboots and pads at some stages, and altering the management of horses and ponies to suit a barefoot lifestyle.

Again coincidentally, there has recently been an increase in the use of well researched and documented trimming techniques for the treatment of lameness and related problems, for example angular deformities in young foals, with or without the additional use of acrylics and stick-on shoes. These techniques are carried out almost exclusively by farriers and veterinary surgeons.




Conclusions:

a) While some horses do not necessarily require to be shod, working horses, for example those used for hunting, trail riding or for pulling drays on hard surfaces are likely to require shoeing or similar. In the absence of any objective studies into this assertion, on an anecdotal basis, attempts to ride horses unshod where there is significant road work or similar, leads to lameness associated with excessive hoof wear. Similarly heavy horses used on paved roads will sometimes wear out a heavy set of shoes in under ten days and this again suggests that some form of protection is necessary for these horses and they simply cannot go completely barefoot because of the work they are expected to do. This conclusion is in keeping with historical considerations.
b) There is a requirement for shoeing for some horses to reduce slipping in combination with the use of studs and other devices attached to their shoes. This is particularly applicable with jumping horses.
c) There is a need for shoeing for some horses that have such conformation of the feet or veterinary orthopaedic conditions that cannot be humanely and efficiently managed by barefoot techniques alone.
d) Horses worked entirely on a soft surface can generally be worked barefoot. Anecdotally, there are some horses that are successfully racing and taking part in other sports barefoot without problem.
e) There is a large category of horses used partly on hard going and partly on soft, including many pleasure horses, that providing they have appropriate foot conformation may be managed barefoot for at least some of the time. However these horses may need additional protection eg shoeing under certain conditions such as where there is excessively hard or uneven conditions underfoot, or when the amount of work on hard abrasive ground is significantly increased. There is little objective data indicating appropriate management of such horses barefoot for example how much roadwork can be safely undertaken, and what types of hoof are more likely to be able to consistently cope with working on firm surfaces without adverse consequences.
f) Some orthopaedic conditions of the horse, in particular foals with angular limb deviations, may be readily treated by corrective trimming with or without the use of acrylics and plastic shoes. Other conditions such as laminitis may be managed in part by barefoot techniques, again often in combination with appropriate acrylics. Many such horses do at some stage however require shoeing.


2.Regulation

Need for Regulation

There are two aspects to consider in this argument

a) issues raised by working horses without shoes; is it always humane?
b) the requirement for regulation or otherwise of the act of foot trimming.

a) Issues Raised by Working Horses Unshod. These have been largely explored under the introduction section. Working lame horses may lead to prosecution under the Protection of Animals Act 1911 and its likely replacement The Animal Welfare Act 2006 (see later). Recognising lame horses is not always easy particularly for inexperienced persons and where there is multiple limb involvement.

b) Issues Raised by Foot Trimming There have been at least three recent cases involving the prosecution of individuals under the Protection of Animals Act 1911, following on the application of barefoot trimming methods. At least two of these have been associated with what is known as the ‘Strasser’ technique. It is important to record here that the basis of these prosecutions was not the application of a barefoot trimming technique, but that the animals were caused unnecessary suffering as a result of the technique, i.e. either the technique was too extreme or that inadequate analgesic techniques were employed following on the procedure being carried out. While these high profile cases have largely involved attempts to treat chronic disease of the foot, anecdotally, it is evident that an increasing number of lay persons attempt to undertake routine trimming for reasons of convenience or economy. This may lead to welfare problems but these tend to be dealt with by professionals who may be consulted subsequently, i.e. farriers or veterinary surgeons, rather than necessarily involving the criminal justice system.

While many such individuals are untrained, there are an increasing number of organisations claiming to train individuals in techniques of barefoot trimming, which individuals then may trim their own horses or may offer their services on a professional basis. These activities are completely unregulated.

It is possible to categorise trimming into four areas specifically

a) Simple maintenance
b) Preparation for shoeing
c) Preparation for barefoot working
d) Therapeutic trimming

Current Regulation

a) The Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 (paraphrasing) restricts acts of veterinary surgery to qualified veterinary surgeons with a few exceptions. From a legal standpoint, veterinary surgery is defined as such activities as making a diagnosis and carrying out therapeutic treatment as well as surgery itself. It is certainly implied, however, that where animals are being treated for a recognisable medical condition, such cases should be under the care of a veterinary surgeon. It is acknowledged that certain conditions are treated by other individuals acting under the direction of a veterinary surgeon (for example chartered physiotherapists) and, by custom, other individuals may involve themselves with minor treatments, although it is questionable as to whether this is strictly within the law, for example some equine dental techniques by equine dental technicians and treatment of simple foot conditions by farriers. Where the treatment of any condition requires the prescription of prescription only medicines or where there is significant pain (?suffering) associated with that condition, in most cases a veterinary surgeon’s involvement is essential to comply with the provisions of the Veterinary Surgeons Act and the Protection of Animals Act 1911 (see later). Most cases involving veterinary surgeons would fall in that category (d) associated with ‘therapeutic trimming’.

b) The Farriers Registration Act 1975 essentially restricts to registered farriers, the trimming and preparation of a hoof prior to the immediate application of a shoe. This corresponds to category (b) i.e. the preparation of a foot for shoeing; in some cases it will also correspond with category (d) procedures, i.e. trimming and preparation of a foot for surgical shoes to be applied under the direction of a veterinary surgeon. The Farriers Registration Act does not regulate simple trimming of hooves for maintenance, nor does it cover trimming of horses who will subsequently be worked barefoot, although the training of farriers does cover these areas.

c) The Protection of Animals Act 1911 (paraphrasing) is designed to make illegal any action that causes unnecessary suffering to a horse (or indeed any other domestic animal). This is the main Act utilised currently to prosecute offenders; the major drawback of this legislation is that an act (which may be an act of omission) has to be carried out which leads to actual suffering prior to it being possible to undertake an appropriate prosecution. In theory, all categories of trimming come under the Protection of Animals Act 1911 in that any act that causes unnecessary suffering may lead to a prosecution under that Act.

d) The Animal Welfare Act 2006 will replace the 1911 Protection of Animals Act to positively regulate potential abuses of animals, i.e. to control those activities that would likely cause suffering. It specifically allows Codes of Practice to be set up, which are relatively easily amendable and, therefore, may be updated regularly.

Current and proposed legislation, therefore, potentially covers most situations. The justification for regulation is solely the welfare of the horse, in that

a) working a horse barefoot or inappropriately shod might cause pain

b) trimming or shoeing in an inappropriate way might cause suffering by

i) entering sensitive structures causing pain
ii) putting unnatural stresses on tissues resulting in pain
iii) exacerbate existing pathology increasing pain
iv) cause long term injury to the hoof and other structures and associated pain

Recommendation 1

It is therefore suggested that there is justification for the further regulation of activities relating to the trimming of horses’ hooves, of working horses unshod and the continuation of the current restrictions in respect of The Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 and The Farriers Registration Act 1975.

Further regulation could take several forms, specifically

a) the introduction of Codes of Practice under The Animal Welfare Act 2006 for
1) the trimming of feet
2) the use of horses barefoot
(These Codes could be extended to include best practice with regard to shod horses as well as those being managed barefoot)

b) Regulation under the Veterinary Surgeons or Farriers Registration Act Further regulation might be contemplated under new or existing Acts that apply to the provision of veterinary services or farriery services in the UK, as these are essentially welfare provisions. Currently simple maintenance of horses’ feet is excluded from the Farriers Registration Act 1975; this was to allow owners to carry out simple trimming of their unshod horses. This type of activity would be best regulated in future by a Code of Practice as envisaged above. Conversely professional trimmers, that is those persons earning a fee or reward for providing this service, and perhaps more likely to undertake more extensive or invasive hoof trimming procedures, should be regulated under one of the above Acts or equivalent to ensure proper standards of welfare are maintained. Such regulation must ensure that training and experience is equivalent in nature to that for existing farriers who are already appropriately trained in trimming techniques. (see later reference qualification issues)

3.Education

Currently, to become qualified and practice as a farrier in the UK, it is necessary to hold the Diploma of The Worshipful Company of Farriers (DWCF). The DWCF is awarded following on achievement of a NVQ Level 3 qualification, subsequent to completing at least a 4 year and 2 month apprenticeship with an Approved Training Farrier (ATF), which includes 23 weeks at college in a block release system, 18 weeks of which comprises training (35 hours per week) and 5 weeks for final assessment and examination. Half of the 18 week training period is taken up with such subjects as equine anatomy, physiology, veterinary conditions of the horse’s foot and training in trimming horses’ feet. There are a very limited number of approved and recognised alternative qualifications which may lead to the DWCF, such as the Army’s “Intermediate Military Farriery Course”, although the structure of such courses and examinations is essentially the same. This is subject to strict statutory regulation as to standards under the Farriers Registration Act 1975 and overseen by the Farriers Registration Council.

During the course of an apprenticeship, the trainee farrier, under supervision, sees a wide variety of horses’, ponies’ and donkeys’ feet and at least the more common medical conditions affecting the foot. There is no doubt that farriers, during their training, receive comprehensive instruction as to how to trim horses’ feet, based on both experience and theoretical knowledge.

Regarding barefoot trimmers, training is undertaken by a number of organisations in the UK, specifically the Applied Equine Podiatry Association (AEPA), The American Association of Natural Hoof Care (AANHC) and those following the methods of Dr. Strasser. Courses vary in length with the most popular being short 5 day duration residential courses including both theory and practical techniques although longer courses, some available via distance learning and online lasting up to a year are available.

With regard to trimming for maintenance, for horses at pasture and similar, there are currently no courses available for lay persons to undertake apart from those provided by the various barefoot trimming organisations.

Recommendation 2

With regard to course content for trainee farriers leading to the DWCF, while in practice this includes trimming as indicated above, it would be wise to include more specific instruction in both relation to developing techniques such as the management of limb deviations in foals by foot trimming together with an appreciation of the various barefoot trimming techniques. This is a reflection of the changing needs and requirements of horses and horse owners in the UK. Time taken in training in such subjects as anatomy, physiology and veterinary science, together with trimming of both normal and abnormal hooves occupies a significant part of the courses leading to the DWCF, but it is not differentiated in timescale from those aspects of the course relating to such subjects as fire, tool and shoemaking and other ancillary matters. For reasons of transparency clarifying time spent on the various parts of the course would be advisable.

Recommendation 3

A frequent criticism of farriery training was the apparent lack of post diploma study. Compulsory CPD is the norm in most professions and while this might take an amendment of the Farriers Registration Act, development of a comprehensive CPD programme, including modern trimming theory and techniques, would seem to be advisable in the interim. Current provision is variable but where it occurs is well supported, indicating a desire by working farriers to undertake CPD.

Recommendation 4

Barefoot trimming is seen as a speciality by the various equine podiatry and barefoot trimming associations, whereas farriers consider trimming feet to be simply part of their normal day to day routine. The maintenance and useage of horses unshod requires particular care as alluded to previously and this differs from conventionally shod horses. However if barefoot trimmers wish to be included in the umbrella provided by regulated farriery in the UK their training needs to be increased to parity with that undertaken by conventional farriers. A dialogue should be encouraged between the Farriers Registration Council, Worshipful Company of Farriers and the barefoot trimming associations to see if there is common ground in the interests of welfare.


4.Provision Of Farriery and Barefoot Trimming Services

Currently in the UK there are 2455 registered farriers (not including Northern Ireland). The majority of these farriers hold the DWCF or equivalent with a number holding a higher qualification.

With regard to barefoot trimmers, of the AEPA, there are currently 14 members with 35 “students”. There are 2 AANHC practitioners in the UK, with approximately 5 due to complete their course soon. The exact number of Strasser practitioners in the UK is unknown but believed to be less than 15. Based on the above, it would seem likely that significant trimming is currently being undertaken in the UK either at home by owners or by qualified farriers.

Recommendation 5

Reports from welfare organisations such as the ILPH has indicated that there are, in some areas, problems with locating a farrier, which may be explained by problems of geography, such as in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, but also for less apparent reasons in other more populated parts of the country, such as in parts of Hampshire. The cause of the latter is unclear but clearly is of concern to those horse owners concerned. Certain categories of owners for example those only having one or two unshod retired grass kept horses may have particular difficulties in locating a farrier. This is a problem that requires more critical assessment and appropriate action as necessary.

5.Research

Little independent research has been undertaken into the varying efficacies of the trims advocated by the various podiatry and barefoot trimming associations, although the more radical Strasser technique has been criticised by several authorities having been associated with significant post trim lameness.

Recommendation 6

The original theory behind most techniques relates to foot wear patterns of horses in the wild, in particular populations of American mustangs. The application of this data to a wider and more varied equine population in differing climatic conditions has been queried, and much basic research needs to be undertaken into for example patterns of hoof conformation and wear in populations of unshod horses, ponies and donkeys under European conditions.

More objective assessments of lameness following on trimming would be also be welcomed.






15th October 2006

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PNB



Joined: 23 Jun 2002
Posts: 704
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: UKHSU's "OBJECTIVE ASSESSMENT" presented at FRC No

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QUOTE NEWC report, "More objective assessments of lameness following on trimming would be also be welcomed".

Regulation of Bare Foot Trimming. FRC meeting October 2006.

Foreword by Peter Baker AWCF, elected farrier, FRC.

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This report was requested by Farriers Registration Council on the 14th June 2006. I had proposed at the meeting that the farrier members of Council prepare a report but this did not seem to be taken up and it was left to me. I have compiled the report utilising the expertise of the UKHSU, the independent national farriers association and its associates.

In broad terms this report is constructed in accordance with the conclusions drawn at FRC on the 14th June 2006.


Introduction

Horses hooves are fitted with shoes to prevent them wearing down. Excessive wear results in discomfort and lameness. Shoes are usually only necessary for horses which work on roads. Hard roads have an abrasive effect upon the softer horn of which the hoof is composed. Young horses, horses kept for breeding and retired horses usually do not wear shoes unless they have particular problems. Horses which are worked only lightly or worked off roads also often are unshod. Farriers are very competent in trimming [something they undertake on every horse they work with, trimming when shoeing] and when maintaining unshod feet. Trimming is an integral part of a farriers work and is also fairly profitable compared with shoeing as it is relatively quick and easy to do. Hoof trimmers are a fairly new development. They are a small and very disparate collection of people with limited training and limited skills. It remains to be seen whether they will develop into a sustainable profession, this seems doubtful; as compared with farriers they have a very limited capability, being essentially farriers who can't shoe horses.

Hoof trimmers at present seem to prey upon the less knowledgeable horse owners by promoting the idea that horses do not need shoes and that farriers are taking them for a ride. Trimmers seem to charge more than farriers and they have a widespread reputation for making horses lame by their actions. There have been several prosecutions for cruelty involving hoof trimmers.



Categories of hoof trimming

Three divisions of the subject have been proposed.

Division 1. MINIMAL MAINTAINANCE regards the simple and superficial removal of rough and overgrown edges of the hoof, which was agreed at council as not needing regulation.

Division 2. COMPLEX SITUATIONS regards the trimming of animal's feet which due to disease or neglect have left the hoof capsule traumatised and the animal suffering distress. It is suggested following the recent judges decision that this type of condition now falls within the remit of the veterinary surgeons control and any remedial trimming by virtue of this recent CASE LAW should be viewed in the light of it being an act of permitted veterinary surgery. Abuses of the care of an animal suffering in this way are well covered by the new animal welfare acts both English and Scottish are regulated and prosecuted by animal welfare agencies other than the FRC.

Division 3. BARE FOOT MAINTAINANCE, We now need to consider the middle ground - this is a some what grey area.

3 (a). Animals that are worked bare foot. These it is felt self regulate their feet, no matter what any foot trimmer does; the natural wear of equine feet will to a large extent regulate its own hoof wear to meet its own environmental and physiological needs. This type of animal falls within the definition of division one, (minimal maintenance), thus it would be difficult to justify formal regulation.

3 (b). Stud Farms. Young Stock and Breeding Equines.

Animals whose bodies are still developing and not fully mature, [the way these feet are trimmed has a physiological effect], and mature breeding stock which due to the passage of time have become damaged. These types of equines fall with in the valuable / commercial area; as such it would be difficult to see how any commercial breeder would employ an itinerant foot trimmer, if it was to happen without doubt supervision would be effected by a veterinary practitioner [Division Two] as is now the case internationally with stud work, additional regulation would then seem unnecessary and as was suggested at council may even create a niche demand.



Conclusion.

Hoof trimmers may well be manifestations of a fad which is unlikely to persist.

The role of owners has not been considered so far. Most horse owners are
sensible people who know whether their horses are comfortable or not and who will have shoes fitted when it is to the benefit of their horses but who are
not likely to have horses shod unnecessarily.

The future may well involve horses no longer being shod with steel shoes
and nails, and it seems inevitable that eventually glued on synthetic shoes
will take over - this will present a new set of problems when it comes to regulation. However at present these methods are expensive and not robust enough for everyday use.

It has been suggested that hoof trimmers should be properly trained in order to prevent unnecessary suffering to horses. However as they all seem to have
different philosophies and methods it would be difficult to set up a training programme that would accommodate all of them.

Would it be possible to separate farriery qualifications into two stages?
an initial qualification for trimming and a further qualification for shoeing?

In any group of horses there are likely to be some who need trimming and
some who need shoeing at some stage of their lives. The knowledge and skills
required are much the same. Any trimmer will encounter problems where horses
are footsore and need shoes. It would not we suggest be a good idea to
produce trimmers who cannot shoe.

It has been suggested that there is a need for research to demonstrate
whether it is practical to work horses without shoes. It is unlikely that
any scientific evidence would sway the barefoot enthusiasts. Furthermore
there are welfare implications in these experiments if horses are going to
be worked to the point of lameness. It is self evident that when horse’s
hooves wear down excessively the horse will become footsore, this is the
whole rationale behind shoeing which has been practised for 2000 years for
this exact reason.


A practical approach might be to create the position of a Farrier Assistant, something which many farriers have suggested, whereby an assistant would be able to carry out hoof maintenance and shoeing preparation. Either the Act could be AMMENDED to allow assistants to perform certain acts of farriery, which is suggest to be not necessary, risky and probably not a good idea, or assistants could stop short of undertaking UK defined “Acts of Farriery” [Farriers Registration Bills 1975 / 77], their duties carried out under the supervision of a qualified Farrier.

The problem is that what is an act of farriery is unclear. The FRC at present take a very inflexible interpretation of the law. It might be better to take a more lenient interpretation so that removing of shoes, preliminary trimming, shoe manufacture, shoe preparation and initial fitting can be accepted as not being acts of farriery, in accord with what is suggested was within the word and spirit of the registration bills. [Any action similar to this should include caution as it may well have / will have an effect on the need for and even reduce the gross costs of apprentice training, good or bad??. [Explanation requires a separate paper]].

[A thought. Very careful consideration of this matter needs to be given, due to the EU non-uniformity of what is an act of farriery. The UK is ruled by EU law, and in several areas of the EU [arid areas, areas of preponderance of barefoot use], when foot trimming is the greater part of the act of hoof maintenance / farriery carried out on equine hooves. This could complicate the EU directives regarding the 2year / 6 year rules of entry onto our register].

It is hard to make any sensible case for and it may even be dangerous to institute any formal statutory control of foot trimmers within UK farrier / veterinary legislation.


UKHSU July 2006

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POST SCRIPT.

UPDATE.

It appears that from Jamie's postings that the UK Foot Trimmers Body see themselves as capable of undertaking acts of what UKHSU feel is veterinary surguary, that is over and above what is permitted under the Farriers Registration Acts 1975, 1977 , 2002, - The care of LAMINITIS and animal's suffering both Acute and Chronic effects of that condition seemingly independently of a veterinary practitioner.

Control of acts of veterinary surgery are well legislated for at present [See the prosecution of Strasserites last year as an example, led by an RSPCA Vet], and will be in the future if the Veterinary Services Bill is ever drafted.

IS ANOTHER STATUTE REGARDING BARE FOOT TRIMMING HONESTLY REQUIRED??

PNB.

Giles
Posts: 283
Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 4:41 am
Location: Wales
Contact:

Bare Foot

Postby Giles » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:52 am

What are the requirements for the teaching of trimming only?

As has been agreed by most Farriers the actual teaching of the mechanics of trimming can be taught over a period of days rather than years to those that have any dexterity with their hand eye co-ordination. The problem as I and others see it is the teaching of the correct trim for that particular horse. The teaching of the trim required on a say a thorough bred with perfect conformation and action can also be taught over a period of days, and so a couple of months is the only requirement required to cover the various breeds of horses. The problem is that these perfect horses are few and far between, whatever the breed, and to find them in one place to carry out this training would I suspect be all but impossible. Then we have an even bigger problem, how do we teach the trim required for the myriad of variations in the less than perfect animal, of the various breeds.

My contention is that the 4 year apprenticeship is the minimum requirement for this, and in fact could and should be very much longer in an ideal world. We seem to get over this problem by being taught and learning variations to compensate for differences in conformation of various horses over a 4 year period, slowly building up our experience and knowledge base. This is followed by an even more intense period of self training when we get out into the real world and work for our selves. How do we trim those horses with problems either in conformation or injury without training for these particular problems? Well in my case and I’m sure in most farriers’ cases we adjust in various ways the trims we know that work to take care of this problem. Another way of adjusting the trim is by asking another farrier who you have confidence in that has treated this condition with success. Then we get onto the fact that the same horse requires a slightly different trim the next time we work on it, what then without experience? Why we seem to have a conception that there is only one trim with no variations I don’t know, but it does make it easy for the self appointed guru’s to teach and convince the punters that this is all that needed.

The 4 year training period would I suspect be hard to sell to what are in effect trimmers only, or even and organisation set up to teach and control these people. Taking into consideration all the variations that would have to be taught, and the supply of animals with these variations, I cannot see any way of shortening the course to accommodate what is perceived by me and others as that required for trimmers. If this is an owner trimming their own horses only, then it is not an insurmountable problem. They could be taught to trim their own horse, or horses only, with a possible inspection by a qualified farrier every once in a while, to accommodate any variation required or correct any that have been introduced by them. I have had several owners who have followed this route with great success and no problems at all.

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Dr Holtom's Response.

Postby PNB » Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:06 am

Giles,

Thank you for this abstract from your soon to be published book, I certainly appreciate this.

PNB.

csc
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40 am
Location: berks

Postby csc » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:38 pm

pnb whats that your saying?

PNB
Posts: 2239
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:59 am
Location: Wilts, Berks, Ox, Hants, Avon.

Postby PNB » Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:21 am

Stuart,

This is Giles's personal take of his life time experiences of farriery. I understand it is in draft copy now, hopefully to be published in four parts.

PNB.

jaimep
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:20 pm
Location: 50 miles of Chesterfield, mid Wales, Cornwall, jaimeexup@hotmail.com

Postby jaimep » Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:55 pm

PNB "It appears that from Jamie's postings that the UK Foot Trimmers Body see themselves as capable of undertaking acts of what UKHSU feel is veterinary surguary, that is over and above what is permitted under the Farriers Registration Acts 1975, 1977 , 2002, - The care of LAMINITIS and animal's suffering both Acute and Chronic effects of that condition seemingly independently of a veterinary practitioner. "

That is a libelous suposition! Please retract it. Firstly I speak for myself not for any organisation certainly not 'the UK foot Trimmers Body' (whoever they are). Of course I do not undertake acts of veterinary surgery! and if I suspected any such pathology, the first thing I would do would be to advise that a vet is called.

See my comments on the other thread and please note that I agree with NEWC's conclusions above.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:44 am

Jamie,

That's how it SEEMS!! to more than one of us, so tell us where you stop working on both acute and chronic laminitic cases that you come across.

IN THE QUOTE YOU PUT UP A FEW DAYS BACK IT SEEMS YOU ACCORD WITH, the suggestion that there is a condition low grade laminitis which IT SEEMS YOU CANNOT TELL FROM THE CHRONIC CONDITION.

WOULD YOU TRIM THE FEET OF either A CHRONIC AND OR A LOW GRADE CASE WITHOUT VETERINARY REFERANCE?? I would suggest that if an animal is TRUELY suffering from a low grade attack to conform with the Farriers Registration Acts a veterinarian must be involved to supervise a farrier. Isn't that how Strasserites came unstuck??

If it is a chronic condition the vet under these circumstances has been involved previously and has given licence to the farrier to proceed with an agreed treatment plan. Any act of foot trimming other than on perfectly health animals must than surely be an act of veterinary surgery. I suppose you guys BAREFOOTER DO THEN HAVE A "NICHE" probably as veterinary technicians, possibly it would be better to look towards the veterinary nurses register for a statutory registration than to go it alone as I feel you could well hit the BUFFERS there.

PNB.

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Postby jaimep » Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:45 pm

cobblers!

:lol:

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Postby PNB » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:28 pm

Sorry, "Cobblers", don't they shoe humans.

PNB.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:12 pm

Just to update you all on Barefoot Trimmers. In my area of Bristol, Bath, South Gloucestershire, we have seen off 99.99% of the Barefoot Trimming Brigade, due to horse's and ponies being sore footed, incorrectly trimmed, and the price that these amateurs charge for talking the hind leg off their donkeys. As was said previously on this board, it is, or was a fad, which very soon will be history.

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Postby jaimep » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:10 pm

Good for you John.

It may interest our readers (are there any?) to know that in response to (what I think was) the original query. To become an EP (N.b. I very clearly make a distinction an Equine Podiatrist and a barefoot trimmer) one has to successfully complete a two year course. Entry requirements of the course are previous education to at least 'A' level standard, computor literacy and significant previous experience of working with horses and to pass a rigorous interview process.

Whilst the course is I believe the most thorough education in the equine foot available in the world today we still hope to continuously improve and expand it even further in future.

Personally I am convinced that there is at least a degree standard of education to be had in studying horses feet and hope this will remain an aim of the EPAUK.

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Postby john ford » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:43 pm

When you have finished exploring the horses foot Jaimep. Before you trim another I would advise you to study the horse and it's limbs in detail. I have just returned from Lancashire helping with a very in-depth study on horses. feet: conformation: before trimming: after trimming: and after shoeing. Each stage of the procedure included, foot moulds: x rays: pressure mat analysis: 3D video, with every single measurement imaginable taken. It will be sometime before all the findings of this research comes to light, but we learnt many things that would put you people to shame, and in the same light honour many working farriers who have written much about their research over the years, as to being correct in many of their findings towards good horseshoeing.

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Postby jaimep » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:37 am

Excellant advise John and that's exactly what we do.

Your research sounds interesting. What was it's purpose ? and have any conclusions (even initial ones) been made? When will the work be publised and by whom? I'd very much like to read/see it.

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Postby john ford » Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:56 am

Mark Caldwell FWCF is doing the research, but it will take along time to anelize all the data collected, and we still have another session of horses to complete. Mr Cauldwell FWCF has written a book on horseshoeing which is being proofed at this very minute, and should be avaiable to buy next year. We did find that Ducketts Dot was nearly spot on.

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Postby jaimep » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:09 am

Spot on in what sense? In that it is the centre of weight bearing?

Were your tests only carried out statically? or did you manage to do some dynamic testing too? (now that really would be interesting). Were the feet tested at each stage? and with different trims? i.e. balanced according to the different methods?

What is it that you are trying to ascertain (or prove even) with your tests?

I understand these things take time and I don't know Mark but I look forward to his book.

Italian stallion
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Postby Italian stallion » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:55 am

jaimep

were yours only carried out staticlly.

Firstly you are a barefoot trimmer, on that note you should only be interested in the basics as you need to walk before you can run.
Stick with your baisictraining on hope you will not compromise the welfare of the horse of the horse.
My advise to you with such minimal training and skill if and when you come across any minor problems dont be scared to ask a farrier or vet for advise, this way would be a good protocol for minor skills persons and this would help maintain the welfare of the horse that is paramount to every farrier in the uk.


Regards,

E.W.

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Postby jaimep » Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:25 am

Not quite sure what you mean IS (maybe it's a communication problem?)

but why do you think that as a 'barefoot trimmer' I should "only be interested in the basics" surely "for the welfare of the horse" I should seek as much and as detailed knowledge as is avaiable?

btw I have absolutely no fear (or hesitation) about asking for advice from anyone, farriers or vets included if appropriate) although I have to say I am often disappointed with the responses I recieve.

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Postby csc » Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:13 am

you are correct in wanting to expand your knowledge so why don't you do a farriers course as the course is in place there is no need for a barefoot course, and no one to implement it ,as the barefoot trimmers have no real time served and farriers do the same job the difference is that barefoot trimmers are bullshitters

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Postby csc » Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:13 am

you are correct in wanting to expand your knowledge so why don't you do a farriers course as the course is in place there is no need for a barefoot course, and no one to implement it ,as the barefoot trimmers have no real time served and farriers do the same job the difference is that barefoot trimmers are bullshitters

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Postby jaimep » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:34 pm

Glad we agree on something Stuart.

I don't do a farriers course because whilst I have great respect for the craft I have no wish to be a farrier.

There was a time when I considered it but having studied the various farriers courses curricula I realised that they would not provide the information or education that I sought, which in turn explained why I could not find the answers to the questions I had about my own horse's feet from the various farriers I asked.

I think we all agree (you have said as much yourself in previous postings) that there is in fact a need for a thorough and comprehensive 'barefoot course' (as you describe it).

As I say, we now have one in place.

Whilst I agree with you that there should be no reason why one profession (call it what you will, Equine Podiatry, Farriery, etc) could not cater for all aspects of equine footcare you must surely agree that the system that currently produces farriers falls short of this? Certainly the three fellows of the WCF that I recently shared a hoofcare stand with held that view...

Perhaps you should ask them whether they felt I am a 'bullshitter' or not?

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Postby Giles » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:09 pm

The three fellows of the WCF obviously don’t know you or recognise a bullshitter when they see one, because that is what you are, but I think they did and were just being kind, you have nowhere else to go as you admit in your writing. You talk about various farriers courses when of course there is only one that you need and that is the current British one, but that would be too much like hard work wouldn’t it.

We all have to start somewhere unfortunately you want to skip the working part and get to what you think is the academic part. The fact that the current farriers course doesn’t cover all you want or need to know it is the starting point and we all have to start somewhere, why not at the beginning, but then perhaps you think that you know more than the rest of us and don’t need to learn the basics.

You say that Farriery could not cater for all aspects of foot care, but you don’t understand it does its best and over time its adherents at least try to cover all aspects of it, and over time learn and use more and more knowledge as they get it. You on the other hand only want the easy way out and jump in the pool half way to the deep end and as long as your feet touch the bottom you think you have made it. Let me tell you that you have a long way to go to the deep end something we all try for with the certainty that we at least start from a sound basic knowledge, something you decry and feel in your assumed superiority you don’t need like the rest of the hard working farriers out there.

In foot care and trimming ordinary farriers can run rings round you because you are to idle to learn the basics, and of course having what you think of as the perfect excuse never will. You may not recognise it or perhaps you do, you are an arcytypical bullshitter. We know that the training is not perfect but at least it encompasses all aspect so that we can make an informed judgement unlike you and your friends in their ignorance. I suggest you bugger off and hide your light under a bushel as is shows up any one who thinks about these things what you are.

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Postby csc » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:29 pm

hi Giles good to hear from you i do hope you are keeping well
with regard to your reply i couldn't have put it better myself i don't know why jamip thinks i support a hoof trimmers course when its already catered for within farriery regarding the nice people i wouldn't put it part them

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Postby jaimep » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:11 pm

It is indeed good to hear from you Giles. Glad you are still firing on all four cylinders! :lol:

As always you miss my point (deliberately I suspect as I cannot believe you really do not 'get it').

Once again... I have no wish to be a farrier why would I therefore train as one?


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