Document submitted to FRC. Regulation of bare foot trimmers.

For farriers to raise concerns with elected Farriers Registration Council representative Peter Baker. Anonymous postings will be deleted.
PNB
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Postby PNB » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:34 am

Chris,

This is a lay point of view but one I personal hold up and fits the argument, my hope is that someone will come on line who has a better theory or conversely is able to support with a research paper my ideas.

Laminitis is associated with blood circulatory defects, blood sugar induced is the most common cause, plenty of research here, Pollitt for one. There are however at least 6 other identified causes, [Eustace, understanding laminitis].

The effects of an ACUTE attack of laminitis is the animal thrusts its feet forwards and defectively loads its limbs which are now placed in front of vertical. There is a mechanism in the foot that kicks in during the extension period of the horses stride, the mechanism retains blood to dissipate shock associated with loading and motion, the mechanism is released as the limb moves backwards as the horse moves forwards, [Hydraulic damping as a engineering analogy] to cause a surge to return the venous blood up the limb. This is the mechanism the reversed Bar shoe seems to assist in regaining the equine foot's natural function. The reversed Bar shoe immediately supports the heel area of the hoof and marginally elevates it, it takes away loading from the toe area now free floating and instantly dramatically reduces pain levels. The animal previously reluctant to move will now move forwards without being driven but will still be reluctant to TURN or load its feet on UNLEVEL SURFACES. This observation leads me to conclude that at this stage the reverse shoe only masks the condition of laminitis and the malady is still very much active yet has been rendered relatively pain free and any venous tension is reduced.

If animals exhibiting the feet thrust forwards stance are not treated immediately the ACUTE condition laminitis becomes a CHRONIC condition, as the inflammation and congestion causes the laminal bond to break down through lack of nourishment. The hoof capsule becomes loose on P3. P3 will sink or rotate within the horny box due to the effected laminae bond being unable to support the animal's weight. The three recent Strasser court cases demonstrate either incorrect treatment or misinformed ideas of how the animals that have got to this stage, whether my theory is right or wrong that is a fact.

The suffering CHRONIC animals at this stage of laminitis will without doubt be very unsound , in severe pain and no matter which route is taken, the heart bar Shoe [Bernie Chapman / Dr Eustace or NB digital Support System] some sort of Frog support will be needed. My route from observation demonstrates the open toe bar shoe will need a frog support when an animal reaches the advanced CHRONIC stage, however the open toe bar shoe plus frog support works well, very well in fact. The Fitzy Light reversed is an excellent bit of kit for this purpose and a slight forged modification of the bar plate is all it takes.

Chris, thank you for asking which is a first!! I will now try and quantify why the Reverse Bar Shoe fitted to an ACUTE Laminitic interrupts the development of CHRONIC LAMINITIS which without doubt it does in the cases I have worked on. This is my personal theory about what is happening to the horse with LAMINITIS, the theory is based on my understanding of equine anatomy supported by some documentation [Caulton Reeks for one].

My current feelings are that the change of stance [correction] outlined above allows the circulation to return to the traumatised laminae and even in the most severe chronic cases the circulatory network of vessels to restore. [Unscientifically proven or otherwise yet, to my knowledge] . Without doubt blood vessals do grow back and migrate into heathy tissue .

The conclusions are the pain can be reduced by this simple method, that NO PAIN equals no detrimental change of stance, which allows the blood circulation to function once again and circulatory laminal vessels to regain a previous state where the have become blown away, well it does for the animals I care for.

PNB.

I reserve the right to edit this text during the couple of days when I can assimilate what is written.

Chris Linssner
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Postby Chris Linssner » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:39 pm

Peter

Thank you for your reply.
You are obviously passionate about this topic so how come you havn't used it as a paper for your fellowship? You have to keep trying.

I now understand the reasoning behind the open toed shoe but there are still a few things i am not sure I agree with.
To get the width at the toe to allow for de-stressing or floating of the toe, the width needed between the "heels" would I think need to be somewhere about halfway down the toe quarters. I feel this area should need some protection from outside influence. i.e injury.
One thought on that is that you are giving the hoof an advanced breakover.
I presume you are nailing well back on the hoof. Would this not lock the back half of the foot when having been studied in detail by Tom Ryan, it is beneficial for the hoof to be able to flex and expand.
I have always understood that the blood vessels once shut down do not open to the fully functioning vessels that they once were. There is some amount of shunting where the vessels open and blood by-passes the blocked area giving a compromised feed to the foot. It was my understanding that damage done to the laminae through blood depravation was damage done and irreparable.
You can see damage done to a chronic laminitic with the expanded white line and this is still visible quite a few years on.
I do agree that if you can get the animal out of pain through whatever means then the chances of further damage is reduced.
What do you do if you cannot find the cause of laminitis and have a pony that is permanently on/off lame with no real effect to anything you try?

Chris Linssner
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Postby Chris Linssner » Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:01 pm

Giles

Your reply is boring and predictable.
This discussion started out trying to help you understand how things have changed in the last 100 years and you turn it into an anti natural balance argument.
I told you that i was not the best person to defend it but if irreputable proof was put on your door step you would still ignore it because your website is full of anti everything that you disagree with.
I have been shoeing for thirty years and even in that short time my shoeing has changed significantly and I would hope also for the better. I have learned that what works for one horse may not work for the next.
The Fitzwigram shoe was just a picture in a book and maybe it was used for a while and maybe it was not. We shall never know but a lot of farriery books had strange ideas put into picture to enhance and bolster the authors authority.
The T-Square has not disappeared. It is still used in my business on a daily basis. If you do not understand it I would be pleased to give you a demo and no, it is not just for straight limbed legs with 90 degree hooves.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:52 pm

Chris,

Once a laminitic always a laminitic, but the condition is manageable with care and the animals so effected do have a viable if not cautionary future.

The condition of laminitis does take long time to totally reverse if it ever does, however if there is no pain or very little associated with what remains a laminitic pony I don't see a problem with allowing it to do light work, take the kids out for walk around the road!! [as an extreme example I currently have one pony back in the English Team treated this way late last spring] this pony was successfully trialed for the team within a month!! back in normal shoes.

The reversed open toe bar shoe meets the criteria as a remedial aid, most acute attacks disappear within a month and many within a week. As you say the damage is present visibly for years as a tendency to BUMBLE when not collected, and exhibit rings of growth which with this type of shoe do not tend to noticeably diverge at the heels.

The reversed open toe bar shoe in the critical acute stage of laminitis is best nailed with four nails one either side of the widest part of the foot, Martin glues some of them, I don't.

The period of usage depends on each individual pony, Most only need this application for about one shoeing cycle before returning to normal shoes, some considerably more time, a monthly shoeing cycle becomes an essential due to accelerated growth of hoof horn especially in the heel area. This heel growth is however far less with this type of shoe than in ponies / horses fitted with other laminitis type devices.

A fellow ship theses?? it was done once forty + years ago [successful], then again 20 years later [unsuccessful]. I had published an independent paper [FORGE] 10 years ago so the subject would not be allowed as I understand it would be from me an historical previously published subject.

PNB.

PS, To answer two more points you raise, The shoe termination is almost where the laminal wedge ceases to exhibit if and when this shoe needs to be refitted / reset, and at that stage the over hanging defective horn at the toe could be rasped back which I often do, this gives to appearence of a normally balanced hoof capsule with an exposed wedge however, [ appearence of balance something I have not observed in the few digital support cases I have seen these feet look pretty deformed both at the begining and end of the cycle].

Fitting the reversed shoe in the above way of course puts breakover back in its optimal place!!

Your quote :- "It was my understanding that damage done to the laminae through blood depravation was damage done and irreparable".

Totally repairable most probably not,"Once a Laminitic always a Laminitic", yet my findings would be not critically damaged if treated QUICKLY in the above way.

PNB.

Giles
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Fads and fancies.

Postby Giles » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:33 am

Chris,
What is wrong with being boring and predictable, do you have a problem with correct shoeing rather than the modern concept with fads and whims. The fact that you use them, without research by YOU and your acceptance of any personal opinion held by any cowboy out there. The fact that you have changed how you shoe in 30 years does not convince me that your way is the way to go, especially as my way has been proved over 100’s of years. When these fads have as much knowledge behind them then I might be convinced, but not yet. Fitzwygram was used by my boss and was given up because horses slipped when starting under load as they had no toe grip apart from anything else, simple isn’t it when you think about it. The T square is the worst thing to have been re-discovered recently and it had been discontinued because of the obvious problem it caused to horses with deformed legs. If you think that straightening horses legs in relation to the foot in OLDER horses is a good thing, then I am sorry for the horse especially later in life when arthritis sets in the joints.

See you all Monday, I am off until then

cliff barnes
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Postby cliff barnes » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:57 am

giles
just a quickie for you.. do you use pencilled or upright heels on the horses you shoe...?
clif

PNB
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Postby PNB » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:15 am

Cliff,

The Bakers traditional shoes I referred to had upright heels.

To keep the thread going over the weekend, I suggest Giles was army trained The Royal Army Vet Corps no less, so he would use the heels that a specific animal required, he is a Fellow and a Dr !!, so I doubt you will catch him out!!.

Cliff, when fitting EXTENDED heels do you ever find the need to spoon them to prevent them being trod off.

PNB.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:05 pm

Peter, are you agreeing with Cliff & Chris that things have changed in the way horses are shod, or not.
We now know in today’s world of farriery that if one prepares the foot correctly to the conformation of the horse, and fits the shoe correctly to the same, even if this means shoeing with a little bit of length. The chances of that shoe being pulled off is no more likely than a short fitting shoe which can cause corns, tendon and joint strains. Correct foot dressing and correct fitting of the shoes make the fore limbs advance quicker away from the hind limb. Therefore one has no need to put spoon heels on anything these days. Therefore we do know so much more about the art of farriery than those top class forging men many years ago.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:39 am

John,

No I am agreeing with YOUR above posting, apart from your statement outlawing or is it disregarding to the tradesman's work box containing a tool of heel spooning, from what has been written before I don't really feel you mean any method should be excluded from the farriers box of tricks.

What I do disagree with is the time scale of this debate, 40 years ago there were insufficient farriers to go around thats how I got started, the whole concept of shoeing horses appeared to be being lost, that is apart from the needs of the pony club kids, who as the baby boom brat pack were now in their late teens and setting about earning their fortunes to enable them to re-populate the horse. Horse keeping 40 years back had become centered on the wealthy horse keeper of the Hunter with its very specific style of shoeing as well as of course the racehorse and the few remaining show men, all I suggest who possibly demonstrate extremes of horse shoeing needs.

At this stage the equine as a leisure pursuit animal as it is today was not, to relate 40 years back to the period 100 years ago when horses were the primary source of commerce and had to be shod to meet specific requirements the work man needed them for is quite incorrect. Sound horses were centered in the cities and were moved to work on the land only after they were not sufficiently sound to work on metaled city roads, the docks with the toe grabs and heel stickers / calkins and the rail yards with their close fitted shoes is a quite wrong analogy.

The point I am trying to establish is the skills present today and the equine broard spectrum requirements of today are just beginning to relate to how things were 100 years ago when the horse was the important commercial item.

PNB.

cliff barnes
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Postby cliff barnes » Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:21 pm

pnb

All i asked giles is if he uses upright or pencilled heels on the horses he shoes today, I am not trying to catch anyone out. Things have changed in the farriery world drematically in the last 20years since I started, to be blinkered to any IDEA because it may just be the next fad is a backward step. As chris stated what works for one horse wont necessarily work for another.... If all you have in your tool kit for laminitics is a reversed open toe bar shoe then you are being blinkered to the advancments in the treatment of laminitis.. there are lots of different techniques out there and each farrier needs to do his own reserch to find the system that works for them.

Giles makes lots of comments about how his boss poopooed some of the ideas that have been discussed... does that mean he has never tried them for himself or is it just the way its worded that i have misunderstood his full meaning.

I look forward to hearing from Giles on the subject on Monday.

Cliff

PNB
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Postby PNB » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:19 pm

Cliff,

If you feel I am blinkered you have not been reading your Forge over the last 20 years. That general erronious perception of being blinkered would not include Chris and at least 70 others who were sufficently interested to SELF HELP, and fortunate enough to be able to share the experiences of C J Smith FWCF Hons, when he was based at the Rural Development Commission.

The fact is nothing has changed to the horse or the conditions that manifest within its feet. All that has changed are the perceptions of the young maturing farrier in his quest for / to attain what was the every day process of hoof care and maintenance several dozen decades past. Sadly the maturing farrier does not have the undoubted cost efficient benefits of the RDC's higher education programs. While passing, I aggressively feel that craft education should be close to cost free at the point of delivery.

PNB.

Chris Linssner
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Postby Chris Linssner » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:23 pm

Giles
You never read what is written in front of you.
I never said i was a natural balance shoer.
My business has changed in the way that I would rather take one & half hours to shoe a horse to my satisfaction than go the "slowhand" way (20 mins. What is his real name anyway?).
If you think the T-Square is a defunct tool then you do not know how to use it. You do not understand how to use it and you have probably never used one for any period of time to see its benefits. If you were using it to straighten bent legs(and I don't know how you were) then its no wonder you had no sucess.
I reiterate that I will give you a lesson on its use if you have trouble understanding how to use this simple piece of equiptment.

Giles
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Fads and fancies

Postby Giles » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:08 am

Cliff,
I am back but only for the day as tomorrow I am off again until late Wednesday. As regards the pencilled and upright heels, If you think that upright heels are an advance in farriery and are new, then I think you should do some reading of some of the older books. In my youth Upright heels were the norm for most horses except race horses and some hunters where spooned heels were commonly used. The reason for change to the spoon heels was not because upright were seen as an improvement, after all we used upright on more horses than spoon heels, which I might add are still used on race plates, it was because of the introduction of horse boxes, believe it or not. When horses had to be ridden to hunt meets etc for ling distances and horses were got fit with road work, probably up to 3 hours a day, shoes needed replacing usually every 2 to 3 weeks. This of course precluded corns etc from being a problem, but with horse boxes for transport and less fitness riding because of the lack of groom shoe last much longer and spoon heels are a killer when they are left on for 8 or more weeks as they are seemingly now. hence the change in types of heel recommended though race horse plates are only on for a day or so and so spooned heels are not a problem.

I do take exception and find it insulting that you and Chris’s assumption that I don’t try these so called new methods (though I can stand it) I probably tried them when you and he were in short trousers or even before. His offer to show me how to use a T square is rather like him teaching his grandma to suck eggs. Chris have you seen or got the video that was sent out by the FRC and spillers re the T square. If you have, have a look at it again and in slow motion have a look at the foot fall after this so called and promoted modern development has been used. Have wondered why it was given up even.

I and my old boss if he was alive are not against new methods or improvements rather the opposite. we tried them all plus most of the old ones that were given up, you are not the only one, but like a lot of the others rather late on the scene. Just because I am against something it is not because it is new or re-invented, but because I have invariably tried them and found them wanting. I am not prepared to accept some fad or fancy because I am told it is good and new, but rather I have tried it, discussed it, researched it, sometimes over an extended period and for me they don’t or do work, more importantly they don’t or do work for the horse, and not for the ego of those that promote them. Perhaps you should both give a thought to the fact that before the dole or DHSS these men hade to earn money to support their family, no hand outs. So getting it wrong was not an option, the owner of the horse had to earn a living for the same reason, and he would not go back if you had caused a problem. Just because it is so called new and promoted as an improvement isn’t necessary so, doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t try it, but do use a little sense in your judgement and think why was it dropped.

john ford
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Postby john ford » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:10 pm

Giles the T-square does have its advantages in the correct hands, but should only be used for one reference dimension only. I find when viewing posteriour/anteriour/medial/lateral balance to the individual horse’s conformation requires far more than one dimension, more like six to eight.
The naked eye has always been the best tool to use, until the slow motion video camera came out. The use of one of these has taught me more about gait and foot fall than any other gadget in my tool box, which includes the naked eye.

slowhand
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Postby slowhand » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:32 am

Well boys you will be sad to hear that I will not be posting for a while as I'm off to my little bolt hole in the Costa del Sol 8) until the 11th October BUT I'LL BE BACK! :drinking:


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