Farriery Insurance Claims

especially for horse owners to ask advice, from farriers or from other owners, all welcome, also please post details of lost or stolen horses here
john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Farriery Insurance Claims

Postby john ford » Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:37 pm

This topic should be something that will give horse owners and farriers a lot to ponder over. In nearly all cases where farriery insurance claims are involved, I will ask the client to pay me for my services, and the client to be reimbursed from their own insurance company. Up until this present incident I had always been working under the orders of a veterinary surgeon. Six months ago I was called to a horse with what could be described as the worst four feet on record. There was nothing what-so-ever to nail to without crippling the animal. After taking about fifteen minutes assessing each foot, I came to the conclusion that the only way to help this particular horse was to glue on Aluminium Graduated Egg Bar shoes all round, in order to get correct foot function. I told the client that the job would be very expensive, and gave her the price to complete the job. The client then instructed me to go ahead, saying that the horse was insured for everything. Without giving her answer a second thought I did the work successfully. I knew the client very well and also knew she wasn’t wealthy, so I agreed for her to pay me when the insurance company had paid her.
To cut along story short, the insurance company wouldn’t pay the claim as it was not through a veterinary surgeon. This left the client paying for something which was thought to be covered for. Naivety on both parts maybe, but is it right?
Faced with this same sort of case again, I will never attempt to shoe the horse until a veterinary surgeon has been called to authorise the work to be done. I feel that as a farrier I have a duty to protect the client as well as the horse.
I also feel aggrieved that farriers are looked upon as second rate persons to veterinary surgeons in the farriery industry, in the eyes of insurance companies. What do others think?

P N B

Postby P N B » Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:55 pm

John,

Do you think this relates back to the EIF meeting with WCF in 2002, when EIF tried to make a suggestion that only FWCF's AWCF's should be allowed to do anything to a horses foot other than routine horse shoeing?

I have a sneaking suspicion that one of the recent disiplinary cases related to this as well, even though the farrier in question was working with a veterinarian.

I have been recently informed that the WCF were in fact not in favour of this sub-devision of exam qualified craftsmen, which at the time of the dreaded meeting was widly touted as being the case. The representative of WCF who met EIF thought it would be in real terms unworkable, as UKHSU also suggested.

PNB.

john ford
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm
Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Postby john ford » Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:11 am

We will have,if not already a situation where a farrier feels he could do very much more for a horses condition. But will leave it alone until the horse goes lame, so a veterinary surgeon can give the order for special shoes. How sad is that for horse and horse owner?

Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:28 am

Both ways it appears the likely hood is you are in contra-vention of the farriers codes of conduct. Unless everything goes exactly as you lay out in your treatment plan you are going to end up on the carpet before a disiplinary committee, and get an enforced holiday, unless you have £15K to spare.

slowhand
Posts: 302
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 6:28 pm

putting your neck on the block

Postby slowhand » Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:13 pm

The way the world is now litigation is common. I worked on a horse at the request of a vet known to me for 20 years. The clients farrier refused to work on it. The owner was a woman with too much to say. From the outset I insisted that the work was videod ' for my records'. After xrays the vet asked what I would do, she wanted a second opinion...didn't want 'a blacksmith' making decisions on her daughters pride and joys future. She consulted another vet 150 miles away who asked to see the xrays. He gave me instructions by letter. I was not happy and told him so on the phone and explained what would happen if I followed his instructions[ all on video]. Original vet begs me to carry out the work as horse now desperate so onward and upward [ all on video] The job goes tits up as I had predicted but what do I know I'm 'just the blacksmith'. ALL ON VIDEO!!!! She claims for horse citing negligence on part of first vet and me! The insurance co. send an assessor to first vets practice and scares him shitless says they'll pay her then sue him. The assessor[ret'd vet] comes to see me and gets heavy, court cases, sued, thousands of pounds etc. Second opinion vet has already filled assessor in with his version first and shifted the blame but made the mistake of thinking I was 'just a blacksmith' .... strong in the arm and weak in the head is often qouted. At the last minute I pulled out the video and stuck it in the player... his face was a bloody picture and I was the one talking about sueing and court and money. If I had not covered my arse I was f****d so be warned if you go outside of bog standard nailing on of shoes you could end up penniless.... just say NO

Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:13 am

Slowhand & John,

Thats as it was at the recent disiplinary hearing, [ UKHSU assisted the defence and our solicisitor took the instructions], fortunately the vet kept a set of detailed still photographs of the remedial proceedure!!

It is not only the aggrieved vet / horse owner you need to be concerned about, some farriers need to be watched as well.

It still cost the inocent farrier who worked directly under the veterinary clinicion £15k to defend himself, against an action bought by FRC, the case was kicked out, yet no costs were given to the defendant farrier.

Slowhand offers good advice.

PNB.

slowhand
Posts: 302
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 6:28 pm

Postby slowhand » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:55 pm

Peter
I am not aware of the case you stated, was it publicised ,if so where could I read about it?. Young inexperienced farriers are the ones most likely to be caught in this situation because they may end up taking on something they're not capable of sorting out. Correct me if I'm wrong Peter but if a farrier refused a case thats his choice surely? A neighbouring farrier did just that recently with a Laminitic. He told his client to contact me. He decided he didn't want the hassle, haven't we got the right to look after our interests because the horse world is full of 'experts' ready to criticise.

P N B

Postby P N B » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:17 am

Slowhand,

UKHSU are still awaiting an electric transcript of the hearing [ we are being severally blocked at present even though we have authorisation from the defendent to obtain the same ], once we get the official court record further action is anticipated.

PNB.

PS, Admin will put you in touch with the press officer who attended the hearing with 3 other members and kept a record of proceedings, which need the hearing transcript to be proven.

Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:08 pm

PNB and SLOWHAND
Are we in the eastern bloc or the democratic west? Hearings behind closed doors---no recourse for reimbursment of expenses in a successful defence..... if I were called to a hearing they could get stuffed!

P N B

Postby P N B » Tue Oct 05, 2004 4:25 am

Guest,

To an outsider it seems that way, the craft have got used to it, but some of us don't like it to well.

" Tell them to get stuffed ", If you are the subject of a complaint, a craftsman is asked by FRC to volunteer a report on the circumstances leading up to the complaint for consideration of the preliminary committee that sifts through all complaining documentation. The problem is this voluntary reporting is requested with the rider, " To fail to respond makes you liable to a disiplinary action in its own right ". Thus it is at law statement obtained under threat of duress. Even though UKHSU suggests the only response should be to acknowledge the receipt of the outline of an offence, many craftsmen being an honest breed tell it the way they feel it was, not wanting to hurt their accusor they always damp down the personal animosity that has been hurled at them, to try a fix the matter at an early stage.

The real s**t that happens is if a case to answer is established, the not so voluntary response is used as prosecution evidence in chief. The fact that this type of usage will happen if a full disciplinary hearing is undertaken, is never explained to an accused farrier, which completely contrasts with British Law. FRC refuse to accept this line of argument!!

Thanks,

PNB.

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:01 pm

PNB
Thank you for that reply. It seems to me that you people [ukhsu] have your finger on the pulse and are standing up for farriers rights

D of Tunbridge

Postby D of Tunbridge » Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:16 am

Who stands up for the rights of the horseowner? All very well but looking at the aggression and foul language you farriers use towards horseowners, vets and others it is hard to take some of you seriously - do you really know everything about everything and just how are we to know that you have worked and put in the time to obtain your qualifications. It strikes me that you don't know yourselves half of the time. But hey - I'm just the horseowner

Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:08 pm

D of Tunbridge
A student vet goes to university to get a degree in Vet Science. For 5 or so years they learn how to pass exams. They have to be academical before they are chosen, none are chosen because they are practical. They learn a small amount about a lot of animals and in noway on qualifying are they capable of being let loose on their own.... remember VET SCHOOL. In contrast a student farrier spends 4 years and 2 months learning about the lower limb and foot of the horse so before you have a go at farriers just ask yourself if I had a lameness problem would I want someone who spent 3 weeks reluctantly on the whole horse or a person who studied the lower limb for 4+ years. Horseowners are their own worst enemy because they will listen to any so called expert even in life threatening situations and also in my experience will prolong the pain and suffering of a horse hoping a miracle will occur because a friend had the same problem and her horse is now OK. The worst thing ever to be inflicted on the equine was owners.

Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:28 pm

D of Tunbridge
The response by Guest is spot on and if you are meeting farriers like you describe please tell us where. Foul language and aggression is caused by pains in the arse like you!

Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:38 am

Calm down! Calm down! dee dont doo dat doo dee?

D of Tonbridge

Postby D of Tonbridge » Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:20 am

'Foul language and aggression is caused by pains in the arse like you'

See what I mean - I assume you are a farrier who won't put his name to his rudeness. Perhaps if you farriers spent less time playing with yourselves in front of your computer screens (SLOWHAND?) you would turn up for work in a more pleasant frame of mind - maybe you should examine why you have seek gratification behind closed doors - or am I generalizing like you are? We aren't all fools you know.

slowhand
Posts: 302
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 6:28 pm

Postby slowhand » Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:39 pm

D of Tunbridge
Why have a pop at me? You seem to be very angry at someone for something but why single me out? As for playing with ourselves in front of our computer screens, that is a bit below the belt and sounds like it comes from a woman scorned! I always turn up for work in a pleasant manner and thankfully have a book full of wonderful clients. The psuedonym 'slowhand' has nothing to do with manhandling of the nether regions but refers to the greatest of all at sliding his fingers up a neck. I have had gratification both behind closed doors and in the open air and both have benefits anyway I look forward to hearing from you soon

Keep smiling

D of Tunbridge

Postby D of Tunbridge » Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:51 pm

I don't think your posting on the Farriers Assistant board (Farriers Discussion area) Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:30 pm has anything remotely to do with Eric Clapton! If you can't see the vulgarity in what you wrote then you are the proverbial anorak. Its funny how you suddenly have nothing but good things to say about your clients - looking back over some of the comments it seems you changed your mind. I wonder if your colleagues like your style?

colleague

slowhand - marks for style

Postby colleague » Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:50 pm

8/10

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:21 pm

D of Tunbridge wrote:I don't think your posting on the Farriers Assistant board (Farriers Discussion area) Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:30 pm has anything remotely to do with Eric Clapton! If you can't see the vulgarity in what you wrote then you are the proverbial anorak. Its funny how you suddenly have nothing but good things to say about your clients - looking back over some of the comments it seems you changed your mind. I wonder if your colleagues like your style?


Go on then .... send us your address and I'll send you the video!!!
By the way people like me who don't take life too seriously are the life and soul of the party and for your information Eric got up to a damn sight more than me! You definitely come across as a bit of a bunny boiler and if you don't like whats on this discussion board try the RSPCA site, probably more you're style.

Collegue

Postby Collegue » Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:02 am

10 out of 10 BULLSEYE

slowhand
Posts: 302
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 6:28 pm

Postby slowhand » Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:01 pm

Thanks for the support lads 8/10 and 10/10 isn't bad but GUEST How did you get a video? I have often been described by my WONDERFUL clients as the 'life and soul of any party' and I did like the 'bunny boiler' comment as I won an enourmous amount on a racehorse by that name 18 months ago. But I can fight my own battles lads so when D of Tunbridge gets a bit wound up wait until I get in from shoeing my WONDERFULclients horses so I can reply myself. But you're support at this crucial stage in our relationship is much appreciated and any further marks for style will be welcomed. But probably not by the 'BUNNY BOILER'
I look forward to our posts .......see ya soon!!

Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:42 pm

D of Tunbridge wrote:I don't think your posting on the Farriers Assistant board (Farriers Discussion area) Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:30 pm has anything remotely to do with Eric Clapton! If you can't see the vulgarity in what you wrote then you are the proverbial anorak. Its funny how you suddenly have nothing but good things to say about your clients - looking back over some of the comments it seems you changed your mind. I wonder if your colleagues like your style?
If you don't like his posting[ which made me smile] DONT READ THEM! DUH!!

Collegue

Slowhands marks for style

Postby Collegue » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:30 pm

9/10 Is Slowhand really the Lone Ranger?

another slowhand fan

marks for style

Postby another slowhand fan » Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:16 am

10 out of 10 sock it to em slowhand.

D of Tunbridge

Postby D of Tunbridge » Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:40 am

Now come on - because none of you dare put your names to your sad confessions of closet 'closeness', us poor ignorant horse owners can only believe that this is yet another example of Slowhand's self gratification.

A nice farrier

The attack on Slowhand

Postby A nice farrier » Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:16 pm

D of Tunbridge wrote:Who stands up for the rights of the horseowner? All very well but looking at the aggression and foul language you farriers use towards horseowners, vets and others it is hard to take some of you seriously - do you really know everything about everything and just how are we to know that you have worked and put in the time to obtain your qualifications. It strikes me that you don't know yourselves half of the time. But hey - I'm just the horseowner

You seem to have a problem with farriers judging by your first post above. Some farriers do not use foul language or aggression to anyone and as a christian and church goer I am offended that you think I would be like that. No! we don't know everything and any farrier with qualifications certainly did put in a lot of hard work both practical and theoretical. I have viewed your other post and you single out 'Slowhand' with a remark about doing something while watching his computer screen which was totally uncalled for. Do you know him? Has he let you down in some way? I am sure all who browse this site will be interested in you're answer. Does anyone know who he is? We have had a few laughs at his posts and judging by some of the serious ones he seems to be at the top of his trade- so who is he?

Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:13 pm

At the top of his trade ...... ha ha ha ha ha.

If you don't know who the f@.k he is how can you come out with a comment like that.

Anyone at the top of this trade would not be spending there valuable time p*//ing around in here with the unwashed

southern farrier

slowhand

Postby southern farrier » Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:27 pm

Anonymous wrote:At the top of his trade ...... ha ha ha ha ha.

If you don't know who the f@.k he is how can you come out with a comment like that.

Anyone at the top of this trade would not be spending there valuable time p*//ing around in here with the unwashed

So you are saying that their is no farrier of any consequence browsing this forum who would contemplate replying to the ranting of some demented bint ....I beg to differ! The membership of the UKHSU is made up of the more discerning members of the farriery world and take it from me ' slowhand ' is one of the best because unlike the rest of you I know who he is! The UKHSU is an organisation developed for the good of farriers who ply their trade and where else can you type into a forum and get such a lively debate going on all aspects of the trade... This site is the place to be heard and if you disagree , please tell me where else you can go??? No matter what you're views are on 'slowhands ' postings he has livened up this bloody site.

northern farrier

slowhand

Postby northern farrier » Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:01 pm

there is no way that slowhand is a southern farrier why? because southerners havent got a sense of humour so if we are taking bets hes got to be a northern farrier and us northern farriers hate horseowners so we are claiming him as one of us even if hes from the south

Guest

Re: slowhand

Postby Guest » Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:00 pm

southern farrier wrote:
Anonymous wrote:At the top of his trade ...... ha ha ha ha ha.

If you don't know who the f@.k he is how can you come out with a comment like that.

Anyone at the top of this trade would not be spending there valuable time p*//ing around in here with the unwashed

So you are saying that their is no farrier of any consequence browsing this forum who would contemplate replying to the ranting of some demented bint ....I beg to differ! The membership of the UKHSU is made up of the more discerning members of the farriery world and take it from me ' slowhand ' is one of the best because unlike the rest of you I know who he is! The UKHSU is an organisation developed for the good of farriers who ply their trade and where else can you type into a forum and get such a lively debate going on all aspects of the trade... This site is the place to be heard and if you disagree , please tell me where else you can go??? No matter what you're views are on 'slowhands ' postings he has livened up this bloody site.


With such rubish as this I rest my case your honour.

Black A---.

Postby Black A---. » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:49 am

" With such rubish as this I rest my case your honour". Quote.

Seems by using UKHSU's forum you've assumed / seek associate membership.

Black Pots and Kettles!!!

The DOC

Re: slowhand

Postby The DOC » Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:44 pm

Anonymous wrote:
southern farrier wrote:
Anonymous wrote:At the top of his trade ...... ha ha ha ha ha.

If you don't know who the f@.k he is how can you come out with a comment like that.

Anyone at the top of this trade would not be spending there valuable time p*//ing around in here with the unwashed

So you are saying that their is no farrier of any consequence browsing this forum who would contemplate replying to the ranting of some demented bint ....I beg to differ! The membership of the UKHSU is made up of the more discerning members of the farriery world and take it from me ' slowhand ' is one of the best because unlike the rest of you I know who he is! The UKHSU is an organisation developed for the good of farriers who ply their trade and where else can you type into a forum and get such a lively debate going on all aspects of the trade... This site is the place to be heard and if you disagree , please tell me where else you can go??? No matter what you're views are on 'slowhands ' postings he has livened up this bloody site.


With such rubish as this I rest my case your honour.
I have for quite some time logged on to you're site UKHSU members and have often smiled at some of the postings. I have read the posts about vets and have to agree with their content in the main even though I belong to same. This is the first time I have dared to enter the domain of the FARRIER. The info available on this site is informative and helpful and I have to agree with the posting about young vets and experience. A horseman will have a greater knowledge than a young vet as will a stockman and shepherd. 'SLOWHAND' appears to be a bit of a character and probably livens up any pub he frequents, as he does with this site note his post on farriers assistants, probably a record for views and replies. Their are many viewers of these pages with varying agendas and though they try to diguise themselves it is obvious who they are[ see above quote and think about it ]. Keep up the good work UKHSU and I will be keeping an interest in the site
Many thanks
The DOC

admin
Site Admin
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 8:32 pm

Postby admin » Sun Oct 24, 2004 1:07 pm

Thanks Doc, It's great to have more contributors to the site, you are very welcome, Best wishes, Martin.


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