Unshod horses

especially for horse owners to ask advice, from farriers or from other owners, all welcome, also please post details of lost or stolen horses here
EbonynIvory
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Postby EbonynIvory » Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:08 pm

The sad thing about the whole of this is that

1. It has got personnal
2. Appologies had to be made for the personnal insults
3. Jamiep knew exactly what reaction he was going to get as he was warned off Giles' message board.
4. He has also been warned by ANOTTHER EP not to do this sort of thing
5. It has weakened any possibility of Farriers and Eps working together for the benifit of the equine.

So, inconclustion, well said Slowhand. And wheres that bottle you normally post?!

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:43 pm

Cliff

I repeat. "Why can you people not understand that we make not pretence to be or wish to be farriers? We most certainly are not "farriers who can't shoe horses" if you believe that, you simply do not understand". "We are not barefoot trimmers"

"extensive knowledge of the internal structures " ? How much time do farriers spend on this topic? How many disections are they required to do as part of their studies? Genuine questions, I am not a farrier, I am curious.

E&I

1. I reflect your comment that it is sad that this has got personal.
2. The only appology that has been made was by myself to John because I had been given incorrect information. I would be pleasantly surprised if anyone were big enough to appologise for the personal insults (which correct me if I am wrong, all appear to have been directed towards me).
3. I have never been 'warned off' Giles message board.
4. No I haven't. John's client herself has been in contact with me and has let me know exactly what she thinks of him. Despite being potentially devastating to John's argument, I chose not to use this information to perpetuate the discussion.
5. I hope not. I do not believe that the comments of individuals should neccessarily be regarded as representing an entire profession.

cliff barnes
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Postby cliff barnes » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:28 pm

Jamie
do you belive that what you do is not Farriery...?

Cliff

cliff barnes
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Postby cliff barnes » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:31 pm

Peter

Good evening

Two blank postings

Hope you are well and appologies as i promised not to post here again but I find it very frustrating that the likes of jamiep think they are not connected with farriery, Do ep's really think that we are not connected by the obvious...? EQUINES.....and the trimming of thier feet.

Cliff

EbonynIvory
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Postby EbonynIvory » Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:02 pm

Jamiep,

My last posting was ment as an over all review. I feel that it is sad that it went so far on both sides as you have the simular goal - equine welfare.

But at the same time you yourself did not fill me with confidence as you were vague about your training and experiance. I am part of the market segment that you should be targeting, ie the horse owner. (I am not a farrier or an EP.) This is not a personal attack, it is observation. This is not a que to involve me in a slanging match.

As for John's client, I do not know who she is. I received my information from an EP with their own client base, ie own business, not a farriers client. A collegue of yours(!), not a horse owner who has taken an interest into the machanics of the equine foot. If this is not true, then I am being lied to which is dissapointing.

As for the comments of individuals representing a profession, the farriery industry is a well connected tight knit network, you up-set one person and it up-sets about a third of the industry. Everybody knows everybody. I am an out sider like you but you only have to talk to a handfull of farriers in your area for you to find this out.

Again, I want to stress that I am not making a personal attack.

E&I

PNB
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Postby PNB » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:41 am

Cliff,

No need to apologise this is your board, I just try and keep it tidy, [My Blank Postings are placed on a separate thread, they were very long complex matters and a little off subject], and stimulate our craft and those that need to speak up, to say what they feel!! . Your above posting is in fact a back handed compliment, thank you.

Even if I set aside the effects our fellow farriers are suffering from foot trimmers [which I find difficult] the new breed of EP's [dare I use the word] who generally it seems have with very limited field experience and no referees, there still remains a personal concern about the levels of in field supervised training they have available to them. The effects of the lack of training upon their clients animals is concerning, its an animal welfare issue really with me. OK, so after some years they will acquire skill levels as we all did but in the mean time if there is an option surely it is better to take it. Before the Registration Acts there were very few options!! now there are.

My feeling is it really needs a overview to be taken regarding FARRIER ASSISTANTS, even if it means a shortened training course of attachment [even a trimming apprenticeship] aligned to qualified farriers to produce a supervised structure of training to give students the skill level for them to trim feet competently and in relatively safety.

PNB.

jaimep
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Postby jaimep » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:23 pm

Cliff.

You may not have read all the previous comments (and who can blame you!).

In answer to your question "do you believe that what you do is not farriery?" I would say, no, but qualify it by defining farriery as the application of a shoe to a horses foot or the preparation of that foot to recieve a shoe.

I have previously said;

"I am not necessarily against shoeing, if that is the best thing for the horse"

"if farriers are going to continue to look after them (horses feet) unshod (which btw I have no objection to at all) they should at least avail themselves of the best information available"

"I am not in the business of putting shoes on horses, if I feel that is required I would recommend a good farrier"

"clearly there can be drawn some parallels in what we do, we are after all both working with horses feet".

Obviously there is a connection, equines... why else would I be perusing a farriers forum?

E&I

"I feel that it is sad that it went so far on both sides as you have the simular goal - equine welfare".

I could not agree more. I believe the two professions have much to learn from each other and I look forward to the day that we can work together.

I stress I did not start this particular aspect of the exchange, have tried to ignore it despite obvious and needless provocation. I have merely responded where facts have been distorted and required clarification. Consistantly I have tried to steer the exchange towards a hopefully useful conversation about equine feet. Consistantly I have recieved little more than cheap insults in return. One can only assume those involved have little more to offer... I believe I have demonstrated both the ability to admit if I am wrong and the willingness to learn from anyone who has something of value to offer. I had genuinly hoped to have recieved some constructive answers to my questions and would still be pleased to do so.

I'm sorry if you thought I was vague. I refered you to two websites both of which would outline the current required training and experience.

It is as follows.

We must attend five five day, intensive courses completing
a minimum of 200 hours practical.

We must observe a minimum of five disections and carry out a minimum of one ourselves (I had completed six before I took my final exam).

We must complete ten modules of study, each one with an assessed submission at its end, which must be passed before moving on to the next module.

We must pass a series of exams at various stages;

mid term written and

final written exams and

a practical exam.

In addition we are under continuous assessment for the duration of the courses when it comes to practical aspects such as tool handling and horse handling.

If at any stage there is concern that an individual is not 'up to scratch' they are not allowed to proceed to the next stage.

If anyone were to ask my personal opinion I would say that I agree that some sort of apprenticeship in addition to the above would be advantageous. It was fr this very reason that I opted to spend time working with and observing other qualified EPs (and indeed farriers) during my training. The problem we have had with this is that as a very young profession we are very few in number, when I began my training there were only 7 qualified EPs in the UK. Obviously an apprentice syatem at that time was not possible.

We are currently working hard on producing an expanded curiculem and as a group believe strongly in CPD as demonstrated at our recent attendence at the RVS Laminitis conference and more recently (this weekend) most of us attended a course in the reading of x rays, gait analysis and equine first aid.

It should also be said that the vast majority of EPs (without exception I think) are experienced horse people, why would you choose to do this as a career if not?

So far we dont need to 'target' our market. Our work speaks for itself.

I doubt if you have been 'lied' to but I admit to being a little pedantic with my words and believe others should be too. You said I had been "warned by ANOTTHER EP not to do this sort of thing". Not true, but I have had the comment "I dont know why you bother"... a different thing altogether.

I have never taken your comments to be an attack, quite the opposite.

PNB

See comments above re my thoughts on apprentiship.

I appreciate your concerns (and indeed it is the subject of current discussion amongst us) and also that the situation with the Strasser trimmers has been potentially very damaging to the 'barefoot' movement particularly with those that do not understand the fundamental differences in the methods. That said can you not accept that Eps are a highly responsible group of people who put the welfare of the horse first? That is after all why we do what we do.

I assume by the option you refer to you mean one of two things
1 the option of a farrier trimming the barefoot horse
or 2 the option of trimmers 'training' with farriers.

As I have said I have no problem with the former as long as the farrier in question knows not only what he is doing with the trimming (meaning how this should be different to the trim applied when preparing the foot for a shoe) but also that the trim itself, whilst important, makes up a very small percentage of the knowledge necessary to ensure optimum foot health.

This is why the majority of farriers believe that the majority of horses cannot go 'barefoot' i.e (with all due respect) they do not understand what is required in terms of providing the correct environment for the 'barefoot' horse and that what happens in between the trimmers visits is more important than what happens on the day of the trim. Put simply if you trim and go, without adressing the environment, more often than not the 'barefoot' option will fail. We see it all the time.

We leave detailed instructions with our clients about what to do with the horse in between trims . How often does a farrier do that? If I were to apply your own logic I could say that a farrier should not be trimming 'barefoot' horses because he does not have the training or experience required...

If your 'option' is the latter can I ask what is it that you feel a 'trimmer' such as myself could learn from say a six month apprenticeship with a farrier? My question is genuine, after all I am not a farrier therefore I do not know what I could hope to learn from one (although I have as you know worked with and observed several) that is not directly related to shoeing.

There may well be something I have missed and it may be something that we could consider incorporating into our training in future.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:59 am

Jamie,

"Consistently I have tried to steer the exchange towards a hopefully useful conversation about equine feet. Consistently I have received little more than cheap insults in return. One can only assume those involved have little more to offer... I believe I have demonstrated both the ability to admit if I am wrong and the willingness to learn from anyone who has something of value to offer. I had genuinely hoped to have received some constructive answers to my questions and would still be pleased to do so".
Your quote,"

That is simply not true, you refuse to be drawn into any debate on how to trim a foot!! Your put is hard sell to the client and you have put the CRAFT of farriery and its craftsmen down at every opportunity.

After six months of a farriery apprenticeship you would have only just got out of initial training, probably have a hoof pick, a worn out rasp, shoe removal set of tools, an apron and shoe making kit, removing shoes cleaning out feet and evaluating hooves would be your task. Trimming feet, I doubt it and if, only under strict supervision. THERE ARE VERY FEW STRAIGHT FORWARDS FEET TO WORK WITH, I Suppose that's why you train on dead ones!!

PNB.

Giles
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Pathetic

Postby Giles » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:33 am

Jpeg,
Your pathetic attempts to justify your position is less than convincing. Why you pesist in showing your ignorance about trimming bare foot or otherwise in theory and in practice is beyond belief. You are doing yourself, but much more importantly other well meaning trimmers no good at all. By your constant making points and then turning them upside down, you are showing your lack of thought and common sense.

Quote >"clearly there can be drawn some parallels in what we do, we are after all both working with horses feet". <

What you dismally fail to understand or take on board is that you do not work with horses as farriers do. You only work in a partial way with the horses feet and then with very little training or experience though you claim otherwise, and then it is not backed up by your story of the training that you claim you do.


Quote >"I feel that it is sad that it went so far on both sides as you have the similar goal - equine welfare"<

That is a claim that you have yet to substantiate, by either word or deed. If you did in fact have the welfare of equines as a goal, then you would put a lot more effort into learning what you would like to do. You might even have a better understanding of what others do and realize you are not very knowledgeable or have a good understanding of what you do know.

Quote >I could not agree more. I believe the two professions have much to learn from each other and I look forward to the day that we can work together. <

Having read what you and KC have written and listened to both of you and others of your ilk, I must disagree. We don’t have a lot to learn from you, though you would like others to think so. On the other hand you have more than enough to learn from farriers if you put your mind and time to it. It is much easier just to trim than to learn the whole job in your eyes with the excuse that horses don’t need shoes. I know you claim that you would recommend shoes if they were required, but how many have recommended, if any. I don’t think you have recommended any at all.

Quote >I stress I did not start this particular aspect of the exchange, have tried to ignore it despite obvious and needless provocation. I have merely responded where facts have been distorted and required clarification. <

This is what you wrote!

Quote >One can only assume those involved have little more to offer...<

I suppose you consider that not insulting as it is directed to those that have vastly more experience and training than you

Quote <current required training and experience.

It is as follows.

We must attend five day, intensive courses completing
a minimum of 200 hours practical.

We must observe a minimum of five dissections and carry out a minimum of one ourselves (I had completed six before I took my final exam).

We must complete ten modules of study, each one with an assessed submission at its end, which must be passed before moving on to the next module.

We must pass a series of exams at various stages;

mid term written and

final written exams and

a practical exam.

In addition we are under continuous assessment for the duration of the courses when it comes to practical aspects such as tool handling and horse handling.

If at any stage there is concern that an individual is not 'up to scratch' they are not allowed to proceed to the next stage. <

There is a serious lack of practical work and experience in this so called training that you have posted. I see that you don’t compare it to what a farrier has to do, would it show up the pathetic amount of training that you actually do? A farrier apprentice does more than this in his first college attendance, and that’s before he actually goes out with a farrier into the wide world and work under personal supervision. Please don’t try and blind owners with bull.

Quote >I assume by the option you refer to you mean one of two things
1 the option of a farrier trimming the barefoot horse
or 2 the option of trimmers 'training' with farriers.

As I have said I have no problem with the former as long as the farrier in question knows not only what he is doing with the trimming (meaning how this should be different to the trim applied when preparing the foot for a shoe) but also that the trim itself, whilst important, makes up a very small percentage of the knowledge necessary to ensure optimum foot health. <

Are you implying that farriers wouldn’t know enough to teach trimmers? Or that you know more than farriers. You imply that farriers do not know how to trim horses that do not have shoes, although in previous posting you state that 92% 0f horse go without shoes. Who do you think trims these horses, people like you? I hardly think so, not every owner is such a fool.


Quote >this is why the majority of farriers believe that the majority of horses cannot go 'barefoot' i.e. (with all due respect) they do not understand what is required in terms of providing the correct environment for the 'barefoot' horse<

This statement shows your lack of understanding of the farriers work. More horses are trimmed by farriers in a year than I suspect you will see in your life time, and by YOUR reckoning most of them will be bare foot. This gives a lie to your statement that farriers don’t understand that horses can go bare foot. By your statement you have proved the opposite. You must improve your memory.

Quote >Put simply if you trim and go, without addressing the environment, more often than not the 'barefoot' option will fail. We see it all the time. <

You may see it all the time, but I don’t, Perhaps I deal with more knowledgeable customers (sorry “Clients” ) or I recognize those without the required knowledge and help them along the way ( no extra charge )

Quote >There may well be something I have missed and it may be something that we could consider incorporating into our training in future. <

Try supervised extensive hands on experience and a big dose of humble pie. I know you think you are trained, but in my opinion you are not by a long way. Different feet, different horses, different conformation, they all need different trims, which you having a quickie course fail to understand. It would take too long to be at the top of your tree. I know you think if you make these posting long winded and convoluted we will give up, a typical government official approach, well you had better accept, it won’t happen. So next time get your facts right and a lot less drivel would be nice. I wouldn’t count on it though, you couldn’t get your pen out of gear and your brain in gear on my site. I don’t suppose you have changed.

EbonynIvory
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Postby EbonynIvory » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:15 am

Hi,

jaimep,

The farrier Apprenticeship scheme is one of the best in Eurpoe as already mentioned. It has been stressed many times that the apprenticeship is far longer than the course that you have attended to gain your qualification. (What is the qualification? NVQ, Diploma?) Why don't you contact one of the Colleges (Oatridge College, Myerscough College, Warwickshire College or School of Farriery Hereford) and ask them for some information, have a look at it and then tell us how it compaires to the course that you have done.

Giles,

Quote >"I feel that it is sad that it went so far on both sides as you have the similar goal - equine welfare"<

It was me who wrote this.

All,

Lets see if we can get something constructive out of this, I am interested on a professional level, I'm not interested in the slanging match. Again, this is not a que to involve me in this slanging match. Where has the humour gone?

E&I

Giles
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Blether and Bull

Postby Giles » Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:03 pm

E&I,

Your Quote >"I feel that it is sad that it went so far on both sides as you have the similar goal - equine welfare"<

It was me who wrote this. <

So I understand, but I don’t agree with your sentiments. These people, especially the guru’s are in it for position and money, just look at what they charge. If they think their work and advice is worth this then they obviously think they know more and are better trained than a farrier. If they do then they are deluding themselves or more likely the horse owner. If they were better at the job then they would be farriers, but they are not. In fact in my opinion all this is the result of an big inferiority complex which they hide behind a load of blether and big words.

Quote >All,

Lets see if we can get something constructive out of this, I am interested on a professional level, I'm not interested in the slanging match. Again, this is not a que to involve me in this slanging match. Where has the humour gone?<

As you say where has all the humour gone? Well I have a very good relationship with some trimmers, but Jamie is determined that he is not going to be one of them, so be it, no skin off my nose. Talking to most other farriers I don’t have the problems that I have with his majesty. As I have said he needs to eat a little humble pie and realize he is not the be all and end all of trimming, in fact far from it, which he has proved over and over again in his postings.

cliff barnes
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Postby cliff barnes » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:14 pm

Dear Jamiep

Iam going to sound very disconsending now....

When i read all of the previous postings i felt strongly enough as a farrier to post regarding my concerns about those people out there who are using some out dated wording of the original farriers act to find a back door into farriery.

You ARE one of these people.. you can dress it up in what ever name you like but you have jumped on a band wagon that alows you to work on the hoof capsule of any equine in the UK

The act as I have explained to you was introduced to protect the Equine from unqualified workmen. Now I have spoken with some one who was involved with the original act and its introduction. There were reasons that at the time it was worded as anyone working on an equine hoof for the acceptance of a shoe, it was also widley excepted that it would be easily altered as and when it needed to be to continue to protect the equine... unfortunately this has not been the case and we are left with a back door into the profesion.

The removal of hoof to trim an equine's foot either for the acceptance of a shoe or to leave it barefoot is and always will be an act of farriery...

you can (and Iam sure you will) continue to try and convince yourself and the horse owners of this country otherwise by quoting what is unfortunatley now an inacurate act


Yours

Cliff Barnes DWCF

john ford
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Postby john ford » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:45 pm

Well delivered, and well put Cliff. And to Peter Baker on the subject of trying to allow helpers to join a farrier such as removing shoes and trimming feet, we have them now and they are called apprentices, who then hopefully turn in to fully qualified farriers, which Jaimep should do before he tries to argue any other issue concerning horses feet.

EbonynIvory
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Postby EbonynIvory » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:40 pm

Giles,

Quote "In fact in my opinion all this is the result of an big inferiority complex which they hide behind a load of blether and big words. "

This could be said (drily) about many profestionals, managers, supervisors, lecturers, teachers etc, etc.

Quote "As I have said he needs to eat a little humble pie and realize he is not the be all and end all of trimming." True, but I was trying to be diplomatic (!) in the hope that this conversation can move on.

Its ironic, I have been told more then once that people find me threatneing because I have a tendancy to tell it how it is and be frank about it. I generally get into alot of trouble because of this. Guess I have found other people more "frank" then I am!! :D

E&I

Giles
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Postby Giles » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:20 am

E&I,
Yup, and well known for it. I don't need to liked, just restected.

Giles
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Postby Giles » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:22 am

I&E,
I think I got my fingers in a twist, "RESPECTED" is the word, then again perhaps not.

cowboy_bc
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Postby cowboy_bc » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:20 pm

jaimep wrote:Csc Indeed it was! And my response was intended in good humour as I hope it was received. Of course a £10 week long course is worth…exactly what its worth!

I believe you can simply buy qualifications in America (or even over the internet) but again they are worth, exactly what they are worth.

I thought American Farriers did not need to qualify to the same standards as in the UK or is that a typo & what you are saying?

“as far as working horses are concerened they need shoes” not all of them surely? In any case how many horses in this country can really be described as ‘working’ when the majority are domestic pets who are ridden at weekends only.

Btw I have worked on several unshod polo ponies and know many hard working riding school horses all of whom do just fine. And you must be aware of the likes of Saucy Night etc? I can give many examples if you are genuinly interested.



Hi all,

Saucy Night Saucy Night Saucy Night geez if I had a dime for everytime I heard that name said by a barefooter. Also any silly idea that anyone has that some how a horse trimed by some cult trimmer can do as well as a shod one is well, rubish.

Kevin

cowboy_bc
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Postby cowboy_bc » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:26 pm

jaimep wrote:Good afternoon Giles! a beautiful day so it is!

My old tricks? I thought the implication was that I hadn’t been around very long? How then can I have ‘old tricks?’

I believe KC (LaPierre I assume) has a PHD not a degree and how he acquired it is public knowledge and his business not mine. All my qualifications are genuine and well earned in time, effort and application.

I misunderstood your question when you asked me what I was doing in Warwick. I assumed from your previous answers that you had already made a presumption about what I do for a living. I am an Equine Podiatrist and it is some 20 or more years since I was at university!

As you know I don’t usually put letters after my name, I did in that instance as a bit of ‘sport’ to show that we could all do that (as I know you could) and I hoped with an element of ironic humour. Surely you don’t think my RAC, AA, MAD, Bad, SAD was intended to be taken seriously? The rest are genuine (there are even more should I choose) and no they certainly do not come from one man. If you really want to know what they stand for I will be happy to let you know, but I suspect you do not or if I did you would merely take it as an opportunity to make some derogatory comment.


Hi all,

Equine podiatrist? I guess that means your a vet then? Any certification given by some self appointed cult guru (whether he paid for his PHD or not, hee hee) for time spent home schooling is to any senseable folks invalid.

Kevin

cowboy_bc
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Postby cowboy_bc » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:29 pm

jaimep wrote:och for god sake! Enough already. Read the posts... clearly I am not trying to impress with my qualifications!!! but merely to illustrate a point! I am well aware that they would not impress or indeed be understood on such a board as this.

If you must know my degree is from Greenwich university and my post graduate diploma from Manchester not that that is particularly relivant.

As you well know KC is not the only Equine podiatrist in the world (and in fact he has been around for 51 years, 15 of which he worked as a farrier, the last 9 of which he has been developing his method, indeed you should know for a fact that he would state that he does not teach equine podiatry. I'm afraid you are only showing your ignorance or perhaps just trying to provoke. I know you know better.

I'm sorry but I see little point in continueing this point scoring...(si I will stop whilst I am ahead) I had hoped to have a stimulating conversation about horses hooves!


Self appointed King, Equine Podiatrist no

cowboy_bc
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Postby cowboy_bc » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:33 pm

Equine podiatrist:- A person qualified in the management and maintenance of the equine foot based on an understanding of it's correct structure and function and the influences environment has upon it.


What dictionary did you find that definition, hee hee.

calander girl
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Postby calander girl » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:34 am

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and must admit, a little scared .....you're a fiesty bunch! :grin:

I'm neither a farrier or a trimmer, but an owner and carer of 8 unshod horses. My own horse has been unshod for 9 years. I do believe that many horses can go without shoes, but not all.

I personally would like to see trimmers training with the farriers association and i like PNBs suggestion of splitting the existing training into trimming apprenticeships followed by a shoeing one.

Although i employ a trimmer and not a farrier, I do have concerns regarding the trimmers being self regulated, and would like to see a change in the law that states trimmers should complete at least 2 years with the farriers association and then if they then want to specialise in barefoot performance, they can.

From what i understand, farriers apprentices spend many months going round with a qualified farrier not doing anymore to a hoof than cleaning and maybe take off the obvious rough edges with a blunt rasp. This in my opinion is a GOOD THING. Because while they are doing this they are seeing loads and loads of different feet and learning all the time before they are let loose with a rasp let alone knives!!

There is a new code of practice for hoof care being submitted by the national equine welfare council, which in my opinion falls way short in the sense that in regards to trimming one only needs to be a "competent adult with appropriate experiance and training"....Who though governs what is appropriate experience and training???

There is a response form that can be downloaded...closing date end of april.....so any one who would like to read and respond to this, please visit www.newc.co.uk/codes/hoofcare.php

Thanks for listening to my waffle :grin:

PNB
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Postby PNB » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:22 pm

Calender Girl,

Thank you for directing me by direct inter net link, to this document.

As you are probably aware I am a craft elected member of the Farriers Registration Council and The Farriery Training Advisory Committee, this is the first sight of this document I have had, no matter what it says about prior consultation!!.

To be perfectly fair The Council Members have received oral presentations twice without any paper work, paper work which I twice requested before council on this subject.

I have down loaded the document and it has been included as an agenda item for tomorrows UKHSU meeting.

You and anyone else is welcome to join our UKHSU organisation and have an in put if you so desire. Simply contact admin@ukhsu.com ,.

PNB.

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Postby PNB » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:03 pm

Calender Girl,

How is the document you directed me to relevent to foot trimming??

PNB.

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Postby PNB » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:11 pm

Calender Girl,

I think this is what you are reffering to. Some one has just forwarded it to me.

CODE OF PRACTICE FOR EQUINE HOOF CARE
Includes advice for the care of both the shod and unshod horse
A. INTRODUCTION
1. In the context of this Code of Practice, the term “horse” includes horses, ponies,
donkeys and any hybrids of these, and refers to horses both maintained without
shoes and shod.
2. Owners and keepers of horses have a duty of care to ensure proper hoof
management, showing regard for the need for protection from injury and
treatment of disease. There is a significant probability of suffering associated
with pain and lameness if care is neglected.
3. The majority of horses require some attention to their hooves every four to eight
weeks, occasionally more often. The exact period depends on the individual
animal taking into account their conformation, rate of horn growth, environment
in which they are kept, workload required of them and any abnormalities they
may have.
4. Where horses are shod it is particularly important to ensure shoe removal,
appropriate trimming and reshoeing as necessary is carried out at regular
intervals as indicated above.
B. ROUTINE TRIMMING by owners and keepers of horses
1. Owners and keepers of horses are permitted to carry out simple maintenance of
unshod feet.
2. There should be no pain or lameness during or following trimming.
3. There should be either no or minimal alteration of gait following trimming.
4. There should be negligible adjustment of the shape of the foot and associated
lower limb conformation following trimming.
5. This trimming corresponds to minimal removal of excess horn, including loose and
damaged horn from the walls of the foot and frog.
6. Trimming may also be carried out in an emergency to relieve suffering where a
portion of hoof has become dislodged from the wall of the foot.
C. TRIMMING AND SHOEING FOR REWARD
1. Under the provisions of the Farriers Registration Act 1975, shoeing may only be
legally undertaken in Great Britain by registered farriers, apprentices working
under them or veterinary surgeons. Such farriers must be registered with the
Farriers Registration Council. Registration follows an approved apprenticeship,
completed course of study and practical and theoretical examination.
Registration on the basis of long professional experience was allowed when the
Act came into force and the law also provides for the recognition of equivalent
overseas professional qualifications and certified experience. Farriery in this
context is legally defined as the preparation and trimming of the foot for the
immediate reception of a shoe and includes both conventional shoeing and the
use of acrylics and stick-on shoes. Farriers of course may trim feet without the
subsequent application of a shoe.
2. Other individuals may trim horses’ feet for reward without the provisions of the
Farriers Registration Act. Such persons are not to be classed as Farriers but
should have received adequate training to ensure trimmed horses are protected
from pain and suffering.
D. TREATMENT FOR LAMENESS
1. Such procedures are carried out by or require the involvement of a veterinary
surgeon to comply with the provisions of The Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966. This
is for welfare reasons because
a) Diagnosis is required in most cases. For example even severely overgrown and
misshapen hooves often require radiography for proper assessment prior to
trimming.
b) The management of diseased and overgrown feet frequently involves the
control of pain, part of which will involve the prescription of appropriate
medication.
c) The diagnosis and treatment of related systemic disease needs to be
addressed where relevant.
2. Farriers and other competent persons may undertake the trimming of lame
horses’ feet under the direction of a veterinary surgeon. While a veterinary
surgeon will remain ultimately responsible for a case throughout, the degree of
veterinary involvement will be in more chronic cases proportional to the clinical
signs presented, although regular veterinary review of such cases is necessary.
3. Farriers are specifically trained to undertake trimming and shoeing of horses’
feet in relation to the modification of a horse’s action and in the correction of
developmental abnormalities. This should be carried out in conjunction with a
veterinary surgeon as necessary depending on the degree of abnormality
identified.
4. First aid may be administered to horses with penetrated, infected or bruised feet
with subsequent appropriate veterinary advice as necessary. The risk of tetanus
infection or the involvement of deeper structures within the foot must always be
considered.
5. There is a joint responsibility on the part of an owner and/or person directly
responsible for an animal, on the veterinary surgeon, trimmer and/or farrier, to
ensure that the horse’s need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury or
disease is being met.
E. GENERAL PROVISIONS
1. Horses managed without shoes often suffer varying degrees of foot soreness
especially during the adaptive period and will require careful management,
including the use of protective boots and limited workload to ensure there is no
pain or suffering. The adaptive period is that which following shoe removal allows
the foot to assume natural hardness and resilience permitting usage without
shoes (and may take many months). Some horses will continue to always require
the use of such measures under certain working and ground conditions. Care
should be taken to ensure that any protective boots are fitted properly to avoid
significant injury from straps and fixings.
2. Only suitable persons should be allowed to trim horses’ feet. Such persons should
be either registered farriers or competent adults with appropriate experience
and training.

Thank you,

PNB.

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Postby PNB » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:33 pm

Calender Girl,

In conjuction with the UKHSU, this is my historical view regarding Hoof Trimmers:- Formally submitted to FRC and NEWC.

Regulation of Bare Foot Trimming.
by Peter Baker AWCF, elected farrier member of FRC, for FRC meeting October 2006.

This report was requested by Farriers Registration Council on the 14th June 2006. I had proposed at the meeting that the farrier members of Council prepare a report but this did not seem to be taken up and it was left to me. I have compiled the report utilising the expertise of the UKHSU, the independent national farriers association and its associates.

In broad terms this report is constructed in accordance with the conclusions drawn at FRC on the 14th June 2006.

Introduction:

Horses hooves are fitted with shoes to prevent them wearing down. Excessive wear results in discomfort and lameness. Shoes are usually only necessary for horses which work on roads. Hard roads have an abrasive effect upon the softer horn of which the hoof is composed.

Young horses, horses kept for breeding and retired horses usually do not wear shoes unless they have particular problems. Horses which are worked only lightly or worked off roads also often are unshod. Farriers are very competent in trimming [something they undertake on every horse they work with, trimming when shoeing] and when maintaining unshod feet. Trimming is an integral part of a farriers work and is also fairly profitable compared with shoeing as it is relatively quick and easy to do.

Hoof trimmers are a fairly new development. They are a small and very disparate collection of people with limited training and limited skills. It remains to be seen whether they will develop into a sustainable profession, this seems doubtful; as compared with farriers they have a very limited capability, being essentially farriers who can't shoe horses.

Hoof trimmers at present seem to prey upon the less knowledgeable horse owners by promoting the idea that horses do not need shoes and that farriers are taking them for a ride. Trimmers seem to charge more than farriers and they have a widespread reputation for making horses lame by their actions. There have been several prosecutions for cruelty involving hoof trimmers.

Categories of hoof trimming.

Three divisions of the subject have been proposed.

Division 1. MINIMAL MAINTAINANCE regards the simple and superficial removal of rough and overgrown edges of the hoof, which was agreed at council as not needing regulation.

Division 2. COMPLEX SITUATIONS regards the trimming of animal's feet which due to disease or neglect have left the hoof capsule traumatised and the animal suffering distress. It is suggested following the recent judges decision that this type of condition now falls within the remit of the veterinary surgeons control and any remedial trimming by virtue of this recent CASE LAW should be viewed in the light of it being an act of permitted veterinary surgery. Abuses of the care of an animal suffering in this way are well covered by the new animal welfare acts both English and Scottish are regulated and prosecuted by animal welfare agencies other than the FRC.

Division 3. BARE FOOT MAINTAINANCE, We now need to consider the middle ground - this is a some what grey area.

3 (a). Animals that are worked bare foot. These it is felt self regulate their feet, no matter what any foot trimmer does; the natural wear of equine feet will to a large extent regulate its own hoof wear to meet its own environmental and physiological needs. This type of animal falls within the definition of division one, (minimal maintenance), thus it would be difficult to justify formal regulation.

3 (b). Stud Farms. Young Stock and Breeding Equines.

Animals whose bodies are still developing and not fully mature, [the way these feet are trimmed has a physiological effect], and mature breeding stock which due to the passage of time have become damaged. These types of equines fall with in the valuable / commercial area; as such it would be difficult to see how any commercial breeder would employ an itinerant foot trimmer, if it was to happen without doubt supervision would be effected by a veterinary practitioner [Division Two] as is now the case internationally with stud work, additional regulation would then seem unnecessary and as was suggested at council may even create a niche demand.

Conclusion:

Hoof trimmers may well be manifestations of a fad which is unlikely to persist.

The role of owners has not been considered so far. Most horse owners are sensible people who know whether their horses are comfortable or not and who will have shoes fitted when it is to the benefit of their horses but who are not likely to have horses shod unnecessarily.

The future may well involve horses no longer being shod with steel shoes and nails, and it seems inevitable that eventually glued on synthetic shoes will take over - this will present a new set of problems when it comes to regulation. However at present these methods are expensive and not robust enough for everyday use.

It has been suggested that hoof trimmers should be properly trained in order to prevent unnecessary suffering to horses. However as they all seem to have different philosophies and methods it would be difficult to set up a training programme that would accommodate all of them.

Would it be possible to separate farriery qualifications into two stages?
an initial qualification for trimming and a further qualification for shoeing?

In any group of horses there are likely to be some who need trimming and some who need shoeing at some stage of their lives. The knowledge and skills required are much the same. Any trimmer will encounter problems where horses are footsore and need shoes. It would not we suggest be a good idea to produce trimmers who cannot shoe.

It has been suggested that there is a need for research to demonstrate whether it is practical to work horses without shoes. It is unlikely that any scientific evidence would sway the barefoot enthusiasts. Furthermore there are welfare implications in these experiments if horses are going to be worked to the point of lameness. It is self evident that when horse’s hooves wear down excessively the horse will become footsore, this is the whole rationale behind shoeing which has been practised for 2000 years for this exact reason.

A practical approach might be to create the position of a Farrier Assistant, something which many farriers have suggested, whereby an assistant would be able to carry out hoof maintenance and shoeing preparation. Either the Act could be AMMENDED to allow assistants to perform certain acts of farriery, which is suggest to be not necessary, risky and probably not a good idea, or assistants could stop short of undertaking UK defined “Acts of Farriery” [Farriers Registration Bills 1975 / 77], their duties carried out under the supervision of a qualified Farrier.

The problem is that what is an act of farriery is unclear. The FRC at present take a very inflexible interpretation of the law. It might be better to take a more lenient interpretation so that removing of shoes, preliminary trimming, shoe manufacture, shoe preparation and initial fitting can be accepted as not being acts of farriery, in accord with what is suggested was within the word and spirit of the registration bills. [Any action similar to this should include caution as it may well have / will have an effect on the need for and even reduce the gross costs of apprentice training, good or bad??. [Explanation requires a separate paper].

[A thought. Very careful consideration of this matter needs to be given, due to the EU non-uniformity of what is an act of farriery. The UK is ruled by EU law, and in several areas of the EU [arid areas, areas of preponderance of barefoot use], when foot trimming is the greater part of the act of hoof maintenance / farriery carried out on equine hooves. This could complicate the EU directives regarding the 2year / 6 year rules of entry onto our register].

It is hard to make any sensible case for and it may even be dangerous to institute any formal statutory control of foot trimmers within UK farrier / veterinary legislation.


UKHSU July 2006.

Calender Girl,

I have just re read this paper, my conclusion drawn within it have not changed.

PNB.

calander girl
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Postby calander girl » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:33 pm

PNB,

Thankyou for your replys and your time. I am slightly confused though..

...Firstly, I would like to see trimmers train with the farriers association, not only because they would, in my opinion, recieve a longer more practical training, but also from the point of regulation (they would be answerable to the farriers association). It would also bring two bodies (who both preclaim to have the horses welfare at upmost importance) together. Both farriers and trimmers have the equines best interests at heart and it seems ridiculous to me that the two aren't working together for the good of the horse.

I am just an owner, not a polatician, and yes I do know when a horse looks uncomfortable or not, but sadly there are inexperienced owners who do not. It is the horses in the care of such inexperienced owners that need the protection of proffesionals. It is in this respect that I cannot agree that trimmers need not be regulated more than the proposed NEWC code of practice for hoof care offers.

Please can you answer an important question for me?...are the people involved in disciplinary action within the farriers association actively working as farriers and therefore may recieve complaints against collegues they work with and know personally...or even themselves?

Calander girl

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Postby calander girl » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:48 pm

Just to add....because I'm a sieve head and couldn't remember all of PNBs posts...the code of practice I alerted you to is relevent to trimmers in so far as it changes nothing and still allows anyone to trim horses feet for gain and only be answerable to those who trained them, who have no recogniseable qualification themselves.

Voicesforhorses
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Postby Voicesforhorses » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:45 pm

I am new too and hope you do not mind if I join in with the latter part of this discussion.....

Regarding the ‘Code of practice for equine hoofcare’ which the National Equine Welfare Council states has been agreed after “ long discussions with registered farriers, veterinary surgeons, welfare agencies and industry professionals and is now ready for consultation.”

I was interested to ask how many farriers had actually been consulted or is the NEWC misleading the general public by implying (intentionally or not) farriers are in agreement with the code of practice.

There is a response form available that does have a section to state if someone disagrees with the code of practice but as far as I can see only pledges of support will be published after the closing date for responses on the 30th April 2008.

My concerns are 1. If Registered farriers have not been consulted the NEWC is publishing misleading information and 2. If owners and farriers do disagree, who will get to hear about it?

One of the roles of my site is to give people an opportunity to make informed decisions on balanced, factual information. If the NEWC do not publish any disagreements - I will. It will have no impact on the outcome of this consultation but there is a growing demand across the equestrian spectrum that governing bodies need to be more transparent and that lip service will no longer placate the grass roots equine community.

If anybody does disagree with the Code of Practice in whole or in part please let me know by contacting me through my website at: http://www.voicesforhorses.co.uk/contact-us.html doing it this way is just to prove contributions are genuine, not to interrupt or draw attention away from this forum.

Thank you
VFH

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Postby Voicesforhorses » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:52 pm

PNB If I may just ask a question ……

In your Regulation of Bare Foot Trimming 2006 Division 3 (a) you say "Animals that are worked bare foot. These it is felt self regulate their feet, no matter what any foot trimmer does; the natural wear of equine feet will to a large extent regulate its own hoof wear to meet its own environmental and physiological needs. This type of animal falls within the definition of division one, (minimal maintenance), thus it would be difficult to justify formal regulation.”

With respect how can animals that are 'worked' self regulate their feet? Doesn’t working a horse potentially go beyond ‘natural wear and tear’ in which case is there not an argument that under division 3 there should be provision for care of the ‘working’ barefoot horse beyond minimal maintenance?

Thank you
VFH

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Postby PNB » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 am

VFH,

"Self regulate" their own feet!!, the many barefoot horses in my practice, some never wear hind shoes until just before they go to the racetrack for their first run!! Regulate their own feet that is apart from MEDIAL/LATERAL Deviations in some, a tendency to wing!!

Any of the lads in the yard could dress the wings to a satisfactory degree should the clients so wish, with a minimal initial instruction. The only horses that require hind shoes are those that have DRAMATIC conformation defects!! causing them irregular wear patterns of the solar surfaces, or have a weak foot structure that does not allow them to sustain soundness.

In consequence of being sucessfully bare footed, the hoof structure is harder and stronger. When shoes are applied for the first time dressing of the ground surface is negligible apart from leveling the heel buttresses, to obtain a level shoe bearing surface.

Horses are shod before their first run to facilitate better grip when accelerating at the start and during their races to afford JOCKEY safety, as well affording the same safety by giving traction when travelling off of a straight line.

This style of hoof management "DOES NOT WORK ON FRONT FEET" in my area of practice, flat race horses. I have given it plenty of oppertunity to work but it doesn't the horses all hurt!!.

I did work for Simon Earle for many years, after he left my area he developed an enviroment infrastructure that allowed some of his animals to compete barefoot and some very successfully. I discussed this with him several times. He was adamant it works for some but most definatly not all.

PNB.

PS, I have in the past entered in discussion on bare-footing, I took a lead and tried and tested the theory, above is the outcomes as they apply to my area. This is the last and only output I will have on my findings regarding bare footing. Thank you. PNB.

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Postby PNB » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:07 am

Pps,

Your quote,"With respect how can animals that are 'worked' self regulate their feet? Doesn’t working a horse potentially go beyond ‘natural wear and tear’ in which case is there not an argument that under division 3 there should be provision for care of the ‘working’ barefoot horse beyond minimal maintenance? ".

Hoof care outside of minimal maintainence becomes the domain of the trained FARRIER and the veterinary!! not the hoof trimmer!!

PNB.

calander girl
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Postby calander girl » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:59 am

PNB,

With respect, I'm not sure there isn't some confusion....IF the law stated that any one who trims horses for reward had to hold a farriers association qualification, then anyone working with horses hooves WOULD be a registered farrier!! And that would put an end to all the arguements and anyone trimming horses would automaticaly be regulated by the farriers association.....which is what I want!!!

calander girl
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Postby calander girl » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:22 am

PNB,

Could you please tell me if those involved with disciplinary action within the farriers association are active farriers or not?

many thanks

hch4971
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Postby hch4971 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:17 pm

I think the trimmers get custom because we horse owners don't know what we are doing, we fall for the propoganda and think we are doing the best thing. I allowed a trimmer to trim my ponies, put up with the lectures on how I should have different surfaced tracks around all my fields, the condescending comments about the management of my ponies, not to mention having to rasp every week. The ponies started misbehaving when being trimmed because over time she became rough with them, they got sick of standing for an hour having their feet picked up and dropped down again and again (yes, I did say dropped!), they all also struggled having their fronts brought forward for rasping, something she seemed to have just learned and suddenly insisted on doing even though that is when they began misbehaving. The final straw for me was when she almost blinded my youngster with a knotted leadrope, spinning it in his face because he wouldnt stand still. All I ever wanted was someone who would trim my ponies feet without hitting them because they were wildies just becoming handled, I didnt use a farrier because I had memories of them hitting horses when I was a kid, here I was allowing a trimmer to do the very thing I had wanted to avoid. Fortunately my then new partner had his horses shod (mine are unridden field ornaments) and after meeting his new farrier and seeing him at work I asked him to look at the ponies feet. He was brilliant with them, each and every one now stands like an angel for the few minutes it takes. I can honestly say that I will never allow an unqualified person near my animals, Im afraid the 'get what you pay for' saying is not true here, the difference in my ponies feet is amazing. I don't think the trimmer did a bad job but having seen the difference it was not a professional one. I do think these people should have to be regulated, let them go through the proper training if this is how they want to make their money (and what a lot they make!!) I genuinely believe that horse owners will see the light and get sick of been spoken to like idiots. I would expect my farrier to tell me if I was doing something that was damaging my animal, not to lecture me because I cant afford to resurface my field!

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Postby PNB » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:45 pm

CG, hch, VFH,

Any one who allows a unqualified/incompetant person to undertake the trimming of their animals feet, when the out come is not good, or in the circumstaces could be anticipated as not haveing a satisfactory outcome, IS THEMSELVES GUILTY OF AN OFFENCE UNDER THE ANIMAL WELFARE ACT " 2007!! no amount of regulation will absolve you from this liability.

CG, you are pushing me for the details of the FRC constitution of its disiplinary committee. Please see the Farriers Registration Council,s web site, read schedule one of the act where your questions are fully explained.

PNB.

calander girl
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Postby calander girl » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:30 pm

Totally agree with you hch. Sorry your ponies had to go through that and glad all is well now. Thankyou for your support on this subject.

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Postby calander girl » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:45 pm

PNB,

Not pushing, just asked a question and thankyou for guiding me to an answer.

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Postby Voicesforhorses » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:41 pm

PNB
Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I think we may be at cross purposes. I read your wording ‘horses that are worked’ as a general term, not specific to a ‘profession’ such as racing, hence my question.

I could not see how the general ‘working’ horse whose owner may participate in hobbies such as hacking, driving, endurance etc would have much of a chance for their feet to naturally self regulate, perhaps this is down to my ignorance because my profession is not equine hoof care. In which case I would be genuinely interested to know if in your opinion you believe such horses may need more than minimal maintenance?

You said
“Hoof care outside of minimal maintenance becomes the domain of the trained FARRIER and the veterinary!! not the hoof trimmer!!”
which is exactly why I have asked if anyone disagrees with the code of practice - which states in:
Paragraph C2:
”Other individuals may trim horses’ feet for reward without the provisions of the Farriers Registration Act. Such persons are not to be classed as Farriers but should have received adequate training to ensure trimmed horses are protected from pain and suffering.”
and
Paragraph E2:
”Only suitable persons should be allowed to trim horses’ feet. Such persons should be either registered farriers or competent adults with appropriate experience and training.”

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that you, CG, hch and myself are on the same side of the debate not least because logic alone questions the merit in allowing a code of practice on hoof care to go unchallenged when it includes paragraph C2 & E2.

Regulation in my opinion is about equine welfare it is not about trimmers verses farriers. I thought someone of your caliber may be pleased that some of us out here want to support the regulation of trimmers and would be able to see questions are being asked with the best intentions in the endeavour of becoming more informed.

So as not to take up any more of your time may I just ask if you would be prepared to let people know that an independent organization wants to hear from anybody who disagrees with the code of practice - in whole or in part.? Or would you prefer I ask this question direct to farriers in the farriers forum?

Thank you again for your time
VFH

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Postby calander girl » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:07 pm

PNB

Please could you spare the time to explain to me why, when I first contacted you a few weeks ago having obtained your number from Forge magazine, you were very positive and supportive on my thoughts about laws changing to require trimmers to train with the farriers assocation. You directed me to this forum, telling me I would recieve support from you and many others and you gave me your mobile number and told me to let you know when I was registered to the forum.

I told you in our initial conversation that I employed a trimmer to care for my horses feet. I employed her years ago and she did a good job. I then relocated and employed a registered farrier. In six trims he turned a perfectly straight moving horse pigeon toed. I have since re employed the trimmer and she continues to do a good job. Yet despite this experience, I still want to see changes in the law that require trimmers to train through you guys because I believe in education and lots of it and it would be arrogant of any trimmer to assume they would not learn from your associations training.

I am stunned at some of your responses to hch, VFH and myself, as a representative of the organisation that we have had nothing but positive comments toward.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:09 pm

Great, that is your perogative!! I feel you have a memory failure. I told you I don't really feel bare footers are an issue in my life.

If you wish to use a non farrier to maintain you horses feet great, but you were the one that said you needed to report someone. At FRC I established that the correct route today is via the RSPCA, I can assure you my contact there says they are ready and waiting!!

I think that is the end of this from my view point!! and I can't help with anything else!!

PNB.

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Postby csc » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:25 am

calender girl i feel from your postings that you are not being completly honest about your situation
are you a hoof trimmer or are you related to ahoof trimmer in any way

calander girl
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Postby calander girl » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:51 am

PNB

My memory is fine and I do remember you saying you were busy trying to stop unqualified farriers coming here from Poland and I remember saying that I totally understood and thanked you for your time. I was therefore suprised to see you responding, all be it negatively, to the recent posts on this subject.

I have learned though, through your representation of the FRC, that the association will not support the suggestion that trimmers should recieve proper training through the farriers association, which I find interesting and very disappointing. Please correct me if if I have interpreted this incorrectly.

Many thanks

CG

calander girl
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Postby calander girl » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:01 am

csc

No I am not a hoof trimmer nor related to one. Just an owner, who has had experience of both farriers and trimmers and would like to see anyone working with horses feet to be properly trained, as farriers are. I really don't understand why farriers wouldn't support this, when they themselves have to complete a long apprenticeship, on minimum wage before they qualify.

PNB
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Postby PNB » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:42 am

CG,

I suggest then you ask the association, Goggle NAFB&AE for details. If you get a formal response about this matter, I feel you will have achieved more than I have/can.

The formal UNION response, I posted above. We voted last night to take issue with the NEWC codes of practice document!! And decided it is FARRIERS that should trim horses feet, but there is no legislation to support that!!

The FRC can't deal with it as trimming is not an act of farriery.

Sorry.

PNB.

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Postby PNB » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:44 am

Ps,

CG,

The person you wished to complain about when you first contacted me?? seemingly I understand now he WAS A FARRIER??

PNB.

calander girl
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Postby calander girl » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:00 am

PNB

No not a farrier at all, but a trimmer. Not the trimmer I employ but one that was trimming a horse I was looking to buy. The owner of the horse in question is processing a complaint. For me, it highlighted the need for regulation of trimmers and I felt that if the law changed and it was compulsary for anyone wishing to work with horses hooves to recieve the same and proper training as farriers it would be a good thing.

Thankyou though for your recent advise on where to take this issue. Please believe me, I am not attacking farriers here...far from it...I would just like to see "proffestional" trimmers properly trained for the good and protection of all Equines.

Thanks again

CG

john ford
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Location: Pucklechurch, Bristol.

Postby john ford » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:49 pm

CG, can you please inform all us PROFESSIONAL FARRIERS who, before even applying a horseshoe have to trim the horses foot on a day to day basis, and have taken four years 24/7 training to do so, what we are doing wrong that suggests that we must have special people trained to carry out this procedure, without any knowledge of fitting a shoe if the horse required one. I don't know how well informed you are, but did you know that farriers actually trim horses and ponies on a daily basis that don't require horseshoes. So if you think that farriers are not interested in the horses feet unless we have to fit a shoe, dream on. For anyone else who wishes to tell tragic stories of poor farriery on their horses, may I remind them that all professionals in any field are human beings, and have a mind of their own. Out of the 2656 registered farriers in this country at least 90% have a conscience, and carryout a 100% service. Like all professions their are a small number of rogues, remember Dr Shipman. He is not the only bad doctor, but the vast majority of doctors are top class. With that in mind would you and others be happy to see little groups with 2 years training doing what doctors do, just because of the few poor ones.

calander girl
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Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:36 am

Postby calander girl » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:15 am

John Ford

Please read all my posts again and you will see that I am calling for everyone to be trained by the farriers association!! Just because I have had ONE experience of a poor farrier does NOT make me believe that ALL farriers are poor. If I believed that, I wouldn't be calling for EVERYONE that works with horses hooves to complete the farriers association apprenticeship would I?!!


I will take PNBs advice and take this issue to Mr Hurcomb and hope that at least he will read my email correctly, with less suspistion and a more open mind than I have recieved here.

Thankyou all for your time

CG

csc
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Location: berks

Postby csc » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:01 pm

peter and john i think you both hit the nail on the head with excelent comments
and thank you cg for yourhonerst answer to my question
am i correct by thinking that you would like to see offical training for barefoot trimmers to make them answerable
it will happen if demand calls for it
but alot of barefoot trimming is bassed on bullshiting the customer ,its basicaly down to marketing
and i think within the next five years it will be forgotten
farriers dont want to help it establish it as it is already covered by our sytem of training
some might feel that anew course for barefoot trimmers is reasnoble
NO its not its only a excuse to squander more public money

calander girl
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:36 am

Postby calander girl » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:27 pm

csc

Thankyou :grin:

Yes I do want to see official training but nothing has to change in regards to what the farriers training already consists of. I would just like it be compulsory for ANYONE working with horses feet to have to complete the same apprenticeship that farriers do. If, when a would-be "barefoot" trimmer has completed this qualification, they want to go off and specialise in "performance barefoot" then they can. Just the same as a vet who knows from the start of his training that he wants to specialise in equine vet science, but he still has to learn about hampsters and rabbits along the way.

So, just to clarify.....I'd like to see a change in the law (ambitious I know ) but the changes would not effect farriers or tax payers but it would effect trimmers and it would offer greater protection to the most vunerable equines owned by the less experienced. This for me is not about trimmers versus farriers, it's about protecting horses.

CG


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